Goodbye to MAN Roland

The Tea Party thing may not then happened, if King George had not been so taxing.

Do you recall if it was an general offset or Metal Decorator printer that bought your old Crabtree? I must say the CT-V works well in Metal Deco (flat sheet) printing thick sheets of Aluminum and or Steel, albeit at lower SPH operating speeds than commercial printing needs...

It was a general offset press
Now it seems MAN UK has gone into 'Administration'. Its sad really because no matter how much money is pumped into a company to try and hold it up if you were are in the market for a new press would a MAN Roland be at the top of your list knowing what is more than likely going to happen. A sad day for a well respected press manufacturer.
 
Roland Engineers

Roland Engineers

Anyone know of any independent Roland 700 engineers/Electricians?

Just in case.....
 
In the Long Run, i'd imagine Man Roland will sell off their sheet fed division and push the Web side of the business.... either that or the 60m they borrowed will allow them to restructure and downsize, I wouldn't write off the Germans......

I have a long history with Man Roland, they never let me down, wish them all the best.....

Has anyone heard anything about Kodak?.......

A.
 
goodbye man roland hello roland man...
apparently the service tech have not had their wages but have been promised it is on the way...
seems quite a few companies are interested in taking over....
so....not the end but the start of a slimmed down roland i think..
they also have quite a few big machines to deliver in 2012 so we will have to see..

regards
johnboy
 
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Manroland AG, the biggest maker of newspaper printing machines, filed for insolvency on Nov. 25, threatening the jobs of more than 6,000 workers.

Germany Goes Out of Print as Manroland Files for Insolvency - Bloomberg

Farshad, even though the article was two week old news, it did comment on some very interesting issues with the press manufacturing industry in general in Germany. The total press manufacturing industry is not only shrinking but I would add that I suspect their confidence is also shrinking to the point where they are not able to develop the innovation required for them to compete against each other. They are all going down together.

Over the years, these well established press manufacturers have supported other graphic arts organizations and events. They have been viewed as the experts and this allowed many others to be a bit lazy in their thinking about printing issues because one could always go to the press manufacturers for the ultimate knowledge.

Of course they don't have that kind of knowledge but their respected position in the industry tended to give them the benefit of doubt in that respect. But with the shrinking of the market and downsizing of these companies, there will probably not be the support available from them as was enjoyed before.

So in the downsizing process, many engineers and scientists are let go. Some of them might actually have innovative abilities and this could lead to a new industry of aftermarket development of technology to improve productivity. Engineers that were restrained from taking chances due to restrictive cultures might now be able to follow through on ideas that they have been thinking about for years.

Large press manufacturers might have a hard time selling new equipment but small agile and smart engineers could develop small but effective technologies that make existing presses and other related processes work much better.

That model might work better in an environment where the volume of printing is going downhill year over year. The large dinosaur press manufacturers would shrink while the after market technical industry could grow. Small companies that would "pimp" a customers existing press so it would run better than a new press.

If you wanted to add performance to your car, you would not tend to go to your local dealer. You would go to guys who upgrade and do performance tuning. They have specialized knowledge. The same model could be applied to presses. If the press manufacturers won't do that kind of work, then maybe these out of work engineers will get together and fill a need.

Just a thought.
 
Farshad, even though the article was two week old news, it did comment on some very interesting issues with the press manufacturing industry in general in Germany. The total press manufacturing industry is not only shrinking but I would add that I suspect their confidence is also shrinking to the point where they are not able to develop the innovation required for them to compete against each other. They are all going down together.

Over the years, these well established press manufacturers have supported other graphic arts organizations and events. They have been viewed as the experts and this allowed many others to be a bit lazy in their thinking about printing issues because one could always go to the press manufacturers for the ultimate knowledge.

Of course they don't have that kind of knowledge but their respected position in the industry tended to give them the benefit of doubt in that respect. But with the shrinking of the market and downsizing of these companies, there will probably not be the support available from them as was enjoyed before.

So in the downsizing process, many engineers and scientists are let go. Some of them might actually have innovative abilities and this could lead to a new industry of aftermarket development of technology to improve productivity. Engineers that were restrained from taking chances due to restrictive cultures might now be able to follow through on ideas that they have been thinking about for years.

Large press manufacturers might have a hard time selling new equipment but small agile and smart engineers could develop small but effective technologies that make existing presses and other related processes work much better.

That model might work better in an environment where the volume of printing is going downhill year over year. The large dinosaur press manufacturers would shrink while the after market technical industry could grow. Small companies that would "pimp" a customers existing press so it would run better than a new press.

If you wanted to add performance to your car, you would not tend to go to your local dealer. You would go to guys who upgrade and do performance tuning. They have specialized knowledge. The same model could be applied to presses. If the press manufacturers won't do that kind of work, then maybe these out of work engineers will get together and fill a need.

Just a thought.

Erik, it is more than a thought. It is job well done! This is what in our mind as Engineers to provide the Industry with what can't be provided by manufacturers any more. I would like to hear more about your thoughts.Wish you all the best!
 
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The large dinosaur press manufacturers would shrink while the after market technical industry could grow. Small companies that would "pimp" a customers existing press so it would run better than a new press.

If you wanted to add performance to your car, you would not tend to go to your local dealer. You would go to guys who upgrade and do performance tuning. They have specialized knowledge. The same model could be applied to presses. If the press manufacturers won't do that kind of work, then maybe these out of work engineers will get together and fill a need.

Just a thought.

Brilliant. So true, for those engineers have a passion for the industry. Otherwise they'll just move on to other engineering opportunities.

gordo
 
Erik... Shit or get off the pot! If you or any of the poor suppressed engineers at MAN had an economically viable idea to make a press even 5 percent faster, cheaper, easier, etc. all the major players would beat a path to your door. I have listened to this crap for 3 years now from you and in that time (and in a global recession) the major players have come out with a ton of innovations, the top of the line models are so efficient that companies cannot keep up with the pre-press and bindery because they can put out so much work. I have seen XL105's replace 3 presses before and not miss a beat...
 
Erik... Shit or get off the pot! If you or any of the poor suppressed engineers at MAN had an economically viable idea to make a press even 5 percent faster, cheaper, easier, etc. all the major players would beat a path to your door. I have listened to this crap for 3 years now from you and in that time (and in a global recession) the major players have come out with a ton of innovations, the top of the line models are so efficient that companies cannot keep up with the pre-press and bindery because they can put out so much work. I have seen XL105's replace 3 presses before and not miss a beat...

If you are always compelled to listen to crap, that is your problem. Stop listening.

If you think that everything is fine, that is your problem. Stop thinking.

I have not been talking about these issues for only three years. I have been talking about them for over ten years on Printplanet (new and old). I have been talking about these problems and trying to get press manufacturers to rethink some issues for about 16 years. I have presented a TAGA paper on these issues back in 1997.

I can not take any action without someone on the other end wanting to take action. They have not wanted to. They don't beat a path to anyones door no matter what. They rather go bankrupt before they will think in a different direction. A lot of press manufacturers have gone bankrupt over these last 16 years.

So you might say that what I know is not worth anything. That could be true and only history will determine that. But if one press manufacturer or printer does come forward and we can successfully demonstrate some new and fundamental changes, that action would say a lot about that party's willingness to take risks and be innovative.

Also if some new fundamentally different and effective changes are made and demonstrated, will you say openly that you and many others in the industry didn't understand the process. Not likely but it will eventually be brought up that ignorance is more widespread that originally believed.

I can understand that it gets tiresome to hear negative things year after year but in the end talk is not important. Some actions are. I agree with that. If the community does not want to do something, it won't happen. Action is not up to me. I have done what I could. I have stated, using my real name, some things that need changing and how to do them. The path to my door has been there a long time.
 
I must come to Eriks defense to a point. The evolution of printing press design has been an endless series of both good and bad ideas. Some bad ideas were abandoned early, many are still with us. The patent rights that many manufactures hold have a greater influence on press design than many people realize and there are many manufacturers that will persist with a bad component design rather than pay to use a design owned by someone else. There has been a lot of design innovation over the last twenty years and this rapid development in a field where there can be considerable lag time between design and having a press actually ready for market has made investment in new ideas risky in an environment where capital is increasingly hard to get.
 
There IS innovation in the print industry, but the area where I've personally seen the most innovation is in digital print. I've been in digital print since 2002 and have bought 4 "generations" of kit and each one has been a significant improvement over the last. The latest kit installed, with higher resolution imaging, FM Screening, automated closed loop colour management, sophisticated paper handling, etc., etc., is astonishingly good. I used to be able to point to our 200lpi hybrid screen litho and say there was a noticeable quality difference between that and digital. That's in the past now, no shadow of a doubt.

The cost and speed issues for longer runs still remains. We just printed 1000 high pagination high quality photobooks / coffee table books. The mock ups printed on a digital press were every bit as good as the main run. In fact we did a short run "early" version of the same book, printed digitally and the client was delighted with it. If the speed and cost model could be improved by the digital press manufacturers, I'd be delighted to move everything onto digital presses.

Maybe litho press manufacturers have just basically thrown in the towel?
 
If you are always compelled to listen to crap, that is your problem. Stop listening.

If you think that everything is fine, that is your problem. Stop thinking.

I have not been talking about these issues for only three years. I have been talking about them for over ten years on Printplanet (new and old). I have been talking about these problems and trying to get press manufacturers to rethink some issues for about 16 years. I have presented a TAGA paper on these issues back in 1997.

I can not take any action without someone on the other end wanting to take action. They have not wanted to. They don't beat a path to anyones door no matter what. They rather go bankrupt before they will think in a different direction. A lot of press manufacturers have gone bankrupt over these last 16 years.

So you might say that what I know is not worth anything. That could be true and only history will determine that. But if one press manufacturer or printer does come forward and we can successfully demonstrate some new and fundamental changes, that action would say a lot about that party's willingness to take risks and be innovative.

Also if some new fundamentally different and effective changes are made and demonstrated, will you say openly that you and many others in the industry didn't understand the process. Not likely but it will eventually be brought up that ignorance is more widespread that originally believed.

I can understand that it gets tiresome to hear negative things year after year but in the end talk is not important. Some actions are. I agree with that. If the community does not want to do something, it won't happen. Action is not up to me. I have done what I could. I have stated, using my real name, some things that need changing and how to do them. The path to my door has been there a long time.

I have had two major press manufactures visit my humble little shop, engineers took stop watch data for make readies and took measurements of roller sizes and config on a competitors press. The CEO even called for feedback.

These are people that work very hard at making the best possible press. Best does not necessarily mean most innovative. Komori did not innovate in the 80's they un-did some of the over engineered German ideas and brought to market something that prints good, had a good price point, and had solid electronics. The market responded and they did very very well. True engineers often have a disconnect in a manufacturing company, because they do not take in consideration cost, style, marketability, ease of use. All the big players are under huge pressure today, and yet as I said earlier any of them would love to have something that can make a press: cheaper, faster, easier, less wasteful, if you have that they will pay big $$$, if you have been flogging your "idea" for 16 years and don't have any traction don't call everyone else stupid, maybe it is time to take a hard look in the mirror.
 

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