Help sought with ink savings applications

Rtwain

Member
My manager came back from the print show with a bunch of brochures about ink savings software. I ran a scanner in the 80s and we used GCR then so I think I get it. I would like to know from the people here what your experiences have been. what can I expect? How do I do a real world test? Can I narrow my choices down to 4-5 well known vendors? Do they all use GCR? How do I integrate with my (Artworks) workflow?
I have info on GMG, Oris, Alwan, ICEserver, Agfa.
All help is appreciated. Thank you.
 
My manager came back from the print show with a bunch of brochures about ink savings software. I ran a scanner in the 80s and we used GCR then so I think I get it. I would like to know from the people here what your experiences have been. what can I expect? How do I do a real world test? Can I narrow my choices down to 4-5 well known vendors? Do they all use GCR? How do I integrate with my (Artworks) workflow?
I have info on GMG, Oris, Alwan, ICEserver, Agfa.
All help is appreciated. Thank you.

An excellent starting point is here:

Quality In Print: Reseparation for ink saving

It'll give you the basic info you need to evaluate the various vendor offerings.
It's in 8 short parts, scroll to the bottom to start with Part 1.

best, gordon p
 
One option is to use static device link profiles and an intelligent application to apply them. What I have done is to use callas pdfToolbox Server to check for objects tagged with specific ICC profiles or a specific output intent. Once one of the conditions is met then those objects have the correct device link profile applied. If you have a document with mixed content we can still accomodate the conversion needs by converting RGB objects, tagged RGB objects, etc. to convert everything to the desired color space and then tag it with the an output intent that reflects the converted color.

So we "dynamically" apply static device link profiles. We don't dynamically build the individual device links on the fly like Alwan does. It is very functional, scalable and flexible for preflighting, correcting and color managing incoming PDF's.
 
We use "Binuscan CMS server" wich not use simple device link/gcr convertion. Try it out if you can!
 
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Running Alwan here. We've been happy with it. They will set you up with a demo license.

Played with Agfa's when it was first released. I was not impressed. You couldn't proof the result. It applied the color transform just before screening. That didn't sit well with me. I didn't care for the UI, or the "black-box" kind of feel, either. With Alwan you have almost too much control, if such a thing is possible.
 
An excellent starting point is here:

Quality In Print: Reseparation for ink saving

It'll give you the basic info you need to evaluate the various vendor offerings.
It's in 8 short parts, scroll to the bottom to start with Part 1.

best, gordon p

Gordo - thanks that's great info.
Rich - I have heard that Alwan can be a lot to handle.
We are just getting real busy again so this is a good and bad time to be looking at software.
I am worried that our print will look washed out with GCR especially on uncoated stock. Other guyssay that their product can get print to pop and save ink. Not sure how. I'm also needing to proof this to GRACoL and SWOP.
 
I am worried that our print will look washed out with GCR especially on uncoated stock. Other guyssay that their product can get print to pop and save ink. Not sure how. I'm also needing to proof this to GRACoL and SWOP.

When done properly the appearance of the presswork should be the same between the ink optimized and original separation. If it looks washed out there there is a problem with the implementation/solution. The presswork should not "pop" any different than the original would have. If a vendor chooses to change the playing field by, for example, increasing SIDs to increase gamut, then their solution should be compared with the other solutions also performing at higher SIDs. Don't allow a vendor to confuse the benefit you want to achieve (reduction in ink usage) by throwing in a change in the print condition as part of the package.

best, gordon p
 
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I say what Gordon just said. :)

We have increast our quality since we start using Binuscan CMS server. The ink-saving is just a bonus for us.
 
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When done properly the appearance of the presswork should be the same between the ink optimized and original separation. If it looks washed out there there is a problem with the implementation/solution. The presswork should not "pop" any different than the original would have. If a vendor chooses to change the playing field by, for example, increasing SIDs to increase gamut, then their solution should be compared with the other solutions also performing at higher SIDs. Don't allow a vendor to confuse the benefit you want to achieve (reduction in ink usage) by throwing in a change in the print condition as part of the package.

best, gordon p

Quality In Print: Reseparation for ink saving

Gordo - I am confused by your response. Tell me more. It sounds like you have researched these solutions. We are not a big printer and we want ink savings like everyone but we would be fools to turn our backs on quality increases. If one vendor can offer both, does that not give them and us an advantage? You sound like you believe this not to be true.
 
this might be interesting.
New screening technology that saves up to 30% ink.
* reduce ink consumption
* increase press stability
* reduce setup time and waste
* Wider color gamut (cleaner colors)
* Sharper images
* Smoother tints
* Use higher line rulings

Concentric Screening: revolutionary halftone dot technology for offset printing

Simon - thanks for that. I was not aware of that Esko product. (Dont tell my boss.)That may be a viable solution for us and certainly solves the workflow integration piece.
 
Gordo - I am confused by your response. Tell me more. It sounds like you have researched these solutions. We are not a big printer and we want ink savings like everyone but we would be fools to turn our backs on quality increases. If one vendor can offer both, does that not give them and us an advantage? You sound like you believe this not to be true.

Not just researched the solutions - I was, for eleven years at Creo/Kodak, the Print Quality Marketing Manager and was also involved in the development of their ink saving solution. Previously I was Technical Director of Western Canada's largest commercial sheetfed shop.

When evaluating a change in your print manufacturing process you should first of all define your goal(s) for the change. Some vendors will try and confuse issues/goals as a way to differentiate their products. So the evaluation process needs to separate all the issues so they can be examined and if needed, tested individually.

When you wrote: "We are not a big printer and we want ink savings like everyone but we would be fools to turn our backs on quality increases" you actually bring up several important issues that should be explored.

1) Ink savings usually means cost reduction. So, how much will the solution cost to implement vs the ROI? Do you know your annual spend on ink? If you are like most printers then I doubt that you have that info. So here's an example: Commercial print shops typically spend about 1.6% of their gross earnings on ink. So, if you are a $2M dollar a year printer you spend about $32K on ink. If you reduce consumption by 15% then you'll save $4800 per year. Compare your savings to the cost of implementation to see your approximate ROI.

2) When a vendor states 15%, or 25%, or 40% ink savings - those are quantitative (measurable) statements. The vendor should be able to back up their claims with information such as how the ink savings were calculated. Are they based on press runs, the image bitmaps, comparison of contones pre and post processing, etc. What was the image content of the original file, how would the content impact ink usage? (Ink savings is in part content dependent)

2) You use the term "quality" - but I don't know how you define it. Quality is a very fuzzy term, so to evaluate its value it needs to be defined in hard terms that can be discussed.
I like how W Edwards Deming (the father of quality manufacturing in Japan) defines the term. "Quality is meeting customer expectations" The customer expectation is usually represented by the proof. If most of your presswork is done with customer supplied proofs, are the proofs done to any industry standard or specification (e.g. SWOP or GRACoL). If so, then that is "quality" expectation that you should be delivering on. If you print differently, then in that case, you are no longer printing quality. If you control the proofing, then you have the opportunity to define your own shop standard - which you can do on your own for jobs where a different print condition would enhance your customers' presswork. You also have the opportunity to offer more than one print condition which may provide you with a competitive edge.

3) If you go to a finer halftone screen (AM/XM (300 lpi+ or FM 25 micron+) you will increase reproduction fidelity - detail. You will also:
* reduce ink consumption
* increase press stability
* reduce setup time and waste
* achieve a wider color gamut (cleaner colors)
Assuming that your plate and plate imaging system can support it. Any vendor - even non-ink saving ones - can set you up to do this.
Remember though that increasing the fineness of your screening will reduce your operating latitude. It will put more demands on your print manufacturing process.

4) If you increase SIDs, your gamut will increase. So will your ink consumption. But that may be mitigated somewhat by the use of an ink saving solution.
The basics of doing that are covered here: Quality In Print: DMaxx again you do not need to involve an ink saving vendor to print at higher SIDs.

hope this helps, gordon p
 
I can only really reply here in the morning, at lunch then after 5:30 unfortunately.
Since I am not looking at Kodak I dont see where you are going Gordo. also, in another post, you dont speak very kindly about Kodak's solution.Your initial input was helpful but I detect an agenda somewhere. After reading another thread here where you were very active with some guys it seems that you seem rather set in your ways. (Kind of like my boss.) sorry. I guess I am looking for real world examples from people who are either researching or using ink savings or optimization products for print production. We spend about $200k/yr. on ink and the ROI is clear. But our sales guys are worried that the quality will suffer. We have seen some amazing samples where gamut is increased and ink use went down. We are getting some test files together now to proove it to ourselves.Every vendor is offering trials these days. We are a progressive shop and are looking for some differntiation. We dont understand the point of going through this exercise if our printing looks the same when we are done.

On another note, does anyone know anything about G7 Extreme?
 
I can only really reply here in the morning, at lunch then after 5:30 unfortunately.
Since I am not looking at Kodak I dont see where you are going Gordo. also, in another post, you dont speak very kindly about Kodak's solution.Your initial input was helpful but I detect an agenda somewhere. After reading another thread here where you were very active with some guys it seems that you seem rather set in your ways. (Kind of like my boss.) sorry. I guess I am looking for real world examples from people who are either researching or using ink savings or optimization products for print production. We spend about $200k/yr. on ink and the ROI is clear. But our sales guys are worried that the quality will suffer. We have seen some amazing samples where gamut is increased and ink use went down. We are getting some test files together now to proove it to ourselves.Every vendor is offering trials these days. We are a progressive shop and are looking for some differntiation. We dont understand the point of going through this exercise if our printing looks the same when we are done.

On another note, does anyone know anything about G7 Extreme?
 
To Rtwain:

Now I'm confused. You said you were "not a big printer" but then you say you spend about $200K on ink? That volume of ink consumption is not that of what I would call a small printer - more like a $13M a year shop. Good that you know your annual ink spend - as I said before - it's been my experience that most printers don't.
I have said nothing about the quality or capability of Kodak's solution. I couldn't care less whether you consider Kodak or not as a potential solution for your shop. If you had taken the time to read and understand what I have written you would have realized that I have no agenda other than to try and help printers from falling for vendor hype and misleading statements - some of which finds it way onto these forums by anonymous posters. That is why the info that I provided and is on my blog can be used as a basis to evaluate or trial any vendor's solution - including the one you are obviously referring to. If you know of a better resource I would love to hear about it. If you disagree with what I've stated - I'd appreciate the feedback. If nothing else I, and I'm sure other people on this forum, would appreciate your description of the test that you'll be conducting to evaluate the various vendor offerings so that we could learn from your experience.

You say: "We dont understand the point of going through this exercise if our printing looks the same when we are done." That, and a few other things you say in your posts, raises some serious red flags about the intent of your posts.

So I'll refrain from wasting your time any further.

best, gordon p
 
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@ Rtwain: I think Gordon is right about everything that he says in this thread. Were do the hating come from?

Statement: If you set up an ink-optimizing system properly you WILL gain quality. Unless the software is crap.. I'v only tried one system in production so far but it works great!
 
We at Compose OEM Alwan's CMYK Optimizer. We call it IS Optimizer. Our experience in the field is that the product is much more than just ink savings. IS Optimizer will analyze every element in the job and make sure it has been separated properly. This produces jobs that have the right amount of ink for the paper they are going to printed on. As a result of this, make ready times are shortened, goal densities can be achieved without over-inking, paper dries faster. On a sheet press this means that the job can be sent back to the press to print the other side faster.
On a web press, when there's less ink, there'll be less water. Less web growth, better registration.
Plus, because black is now the dominant color, the overall run will be more homogeneous. Meaning the press will drift less from color to color.

IS Optimizer has a ROI tool that allows for the calculation of ink savings based on the data from the original file and the optimized file. The final savings may differ from what the program shows simply because many times the amount of ink that the original files have can't be printed on the selected paper. The solution by the press operator would be to adjust the ink keys accordingly. But then that job may not have the right color. If jobs have the right separation values, then the ROI tool can be used to get a pretty good idea of how much the program is saving on ink.

I've writen a little bit about this on my blog

Regards

Alvaro
 
Alvaro - thanks. Interesting. I am having a hard time contacting anyone from Alwan. They do not have an office here only dealers and our preferred dealer does not sell it.
My frustration here is that it appears that the only feedback is posted is from consultants and vendors. I thought I would get real world experiences from other prepress and printer guys who have went through this already. I read what people write then what they have written in other threads and I find it all strange. Maybe that's just me. Sorry if I offended anyone. Lots of opinions here. Lots of agendas too. Forums arent for me.
 
[SNIP]My frustration here is that it appears that the only feedback is posted is from consultants and vendors. I thought I would get real world experiences from other prepress and printer guys who have went through this already. I read what people write then what they have written in other threads and I find it all strange. Maybe that's just me. Sorry if I offended anyone. Lots of opinions here. Lots of agendas too. Forums arent for me.

To Rtwain:

What agendas are you referring to? I haven't seen any.
If someone's contradicting themselves, why not give some examples rather than innuendo?
What's wrong with consultant's opinions - after all they can consolidate the experiences of many different shops.
I don't see what's wrong with vendors chiming in – as long as they identify themselves as such. At least you know where they're coming from and can weigh what they say accordingly. On that note, since your profile is empty, how do we know you're not a vendor posing as a printer in order to promote your product?
Do a search on this topic in the forums and you'll find several user experiences - but I don't think you'll see much hard data.

FL
 
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