Help sought with ink savings applications

[Simon Ivarsson]

Simon - thanks for that. I was not aware of that Esko product. (Dont tell my boss.)That may be a viable solution for us and certainly solves the workflow integration piece.

I hope that the information I gave you was relevant, even if you might understand that there is agenda behind it...

 

[SteveAgfa]

Just a quick observation.

We've found that the benefits surrounding the use of a GCR tool go beyond the "Ink Savings" aspects.

Some users find new life/ "quality" in an older press, due to the apparent "better" image quality using
GCR. Since the 3-color greys are substituted with black ink, the sheet looks to be in better register. Also there can be the result of running with less water, which can also solve registration issues. Or, in another shop, the powder was objectionable to customers, and with less ink, the use of powder dropped as well.
We've also found that GCR delivers a better product given some of today's cheaper papers, or enables the use of same. HOWEVER, you must have a stabile pressroom to enjoy consistent results.

Then, of course, there's also some ink savings.

Agfa's InkSave is an integrated option for :Apogee X, although we do have a stand-alone add-on OptiInk coming from our newspaper application for non-Apogee workflows.

Regards.

 

[Achtung | Spitfire]

Ink save, bogus and not.

Ink save, bogus and not.

What can I expect? How do I do a real world test? Can I narrow my choices down to 4-5 well known vendors? Do they all use GCR? How do I integrate with my (Artworks) workflow?
I have info on GMG, Oris, Alwan, ICEserver, Agfa.
All help is appreciated. Thank you.

First: I am not objective. If you want you can stop reading here*. You manager missed one vendor... They guilty one.
Anyway. I will still try to answer as objectively as I can. Hope that my input is still appreciated.

First of all I would like to say that there are so called "ink save" softwares and there are "color management/matching" solutions.

1. If one only look for "ink save" you might as well make sure that you make a harder gcr setting in your conventional icc-profile workflow, kind of, right? That was the conclusion Fogra and IFRA made when they made the first seminar on this subject.
Some of the programs mentioned above have basically "reinvented" the gcr: more K and lower TIC.
GCR, invented 1946, has limitations. If you push it to hard you will get deviations, or, bigger deviations that you might be used to. A sky can become grey etc.
A good example of that: in our calculation for a certain print we can see that a neutral black prints best with a certain formula that give a tic of for example 178%. In the same print our calculations we can see that a darks saturated color need a total of 209% to have the best match. Try that with a conventional ICC profile or device link profile... If you set a tic in a ICC profile/device link to for example 200% you will spoil the color and have to much ink in the neutral black.
Anyway. If you only want to "save ink", you should accept no deviations, at all.

2. If you want to make sure that the color standard you have in your job shall be perfectly matched in press, and according to the standard you are aiming at. I would refer to this with the term quality (quality include more part though).
Then you need a color matching solution. This solution can, as a side effect, by calculating the best possible ink formulations give you a situation where you not only print less than before (since you printed to much that is) but actually give you the right amount of ink, not to little and not much (this help the term quality as well: minimized: smearing, see-through, web breaks, drying, less ink on readers hands etc).
We are always working according to point 2:
Total flexibility: one color in, any destination out (any screen (why not "concentric"), paper etc). Lot's of research done.
I bet this is the way all people will work in the future, concluding for happy clients, ISO competition winners and their happy clients. One good sign of that is that one of the vendors mentioned has copied our concept to the smallest detail. So now we are two... The others only copy what we say...

Your questions

What you can expect?
Same result as before or worse, but with less ink. I have seen that the the ones mentioned and one more actually destroying more in terms of quality: but with less ink, yes.
What you should expect:
A better result with the right amount of ink.

How do I do a real world test?
Ask the vendors for a proper test, in your production.

Can I narrow my choices down to 4-5 well known vendors?
Wrong person to ask but if you look at the market, out there.
What I have seen is that the final test prints/competing are usually between two vendors.

Do they all use GCR?
Some obviously do: their softwares have settings for "ink save", "tic" etc.
One good example: Agfa's and ProImage's solution is the same software, with two different names. In a test in Germany the result was very different between these two = result depends of the settings. Not very serious if you ask me.
I personally stood next to one of the vendors you mention and asked why the blue sky had become grey in his print? The answer was "I must have put to much save ink." "So if you put max it become BW?" I asked. "Then you would save a lot..."
The solution we have developed does not have any settings for the user: the settings for a certain type of printing method is determined from the measurement (is is year 2009, we went to the moon some time back, etc, we should be able to calculate the appropriate settings, no?).

How do I integrate with my (Artworks) workflow?
Most workflow tools have "wait-on" functions etc where you can integrate vertical solutions. I have implemented very succcessfully in PPI, Dalim etc. Some vendors say that they have an integrated bla bla. It is normally not a problem to implement a stand alone system. Some systems are a bit rigid and then you have put the calculations before workflow or just before rip.

Questions to you:
What kind of print operation do you run?
Do you have several types of machines/screening/paper and several sites?
May I ask where in the world you are located?


Best regards
Andreas Bohlin
*/ I am part of the Binuscan team and we have developed the CMS Server (color managment system, service: more info: Homepage | ICS).
We happen to show some years back that one could print less ink and the "ink save" pest started to spread around the world...
Now we have about 600 happy newspapers and commercial printer installations.

 

[fiatlux]

[SNIP]
Questions to you:
What kind of print operation do you run?
Do you have several types of machines/screening/paper and several sites?
May I ask where in the world you are located?

I doubt you'll get that info since Rtwain (Arty Wain?) is more than likely a competing vendor and not a printer.

FL

 

[Rtwain]

Andreas - thanks for your replies. They are by far the most detailed and address my questions. But I also need to look at solutions that are available in the US, per my boss. Before we do anything we are going to visit some shops that have put some of these things in our area and will then develop a test form for use. We are located in Dallas, Texas.
Magnus - you are right. I overreacted.But I have read a lot here and find things very strange.
Fiat - I dont know what to tell you. Your anonymous as well and sound like exactly what I dont like about these things. Please let people who have work to do do it without being bothered. I also looked through plaenty of posts that substantiate what I said. Sorry that i dont know how to do the quoting for you.

 

[rich apollo]

Rtwain, try the Decaf. ;-)

I'm an Alwan user.

Will you see ink savings? Yep. How much? Depends on your settings. It also depends on how closely the files you receive aline to the settings you've chosen.

Will it change the color? Depends on the settings. It shouldn't, but it can.

Alwan is very inexpensive to implement, when compared to other vendors' solutions.

PM me and I'll give you contact info - not a dealer, but the guy's who write it. They're pretty responsive.

You said you're running Artworks. Artworks can make a call directly on Alwan, so integration isn't a problem for you. My workflow can't, so I have to handle that aspect manually.

Anyway, I have no agenda. I'm just satisfied with the product.

 

[meddington]

Anyway, I have no agenda.

Sounds to me like you're trying to push the Decaf.

 

[mattbeals]

Rich said that Acrobat does not support device link profiles, which is true. But you can use Callas pdfToolbox to apply device link profiles in Acrobat. We could simply build some device link profiles using a desired amount of GCR to reduce the ink and use pdfToolbox to apply them. It's a good way to start to see how it works for you.