How many shops still running alcohol?

[67drake]

Hi,
I'm new here,so I've been reading some old posts and threads just to get a feel for what is going on out there in the print world.
I was suprised to see alcohol mentioned quite a few times. Our shop has pretty much been alcohol free since the early 90's. We will run it occasionally on our conventional presses when printing on plastics,but this is rare because 99% of plastics are now run on our UV presses. So we might have a 5 gallon jug of it on hand,but that probabily has been in the chemical room for a few years!
I thought the EPA and/or OSHA was trying to do away with alcohol? Just curious how many shops still run it as the norm?

 

[RGPW17100]

We bought Heidelbergs SM52 5 color demo unit from Chicago in 2004. When they used it as a demo they only ran Sub. When the trainers worked with us they could not get the sub to print clean so they set us up with Alcohol and we have been using it since. We are changing all of our transfers, forms and water rollers and are going to give the Two step solutions another try. We added this as a green initiative for our shop.

 

[rbailleu]

we bought a 2003 sm52-4h from a printer in ga. it was run with prisco alcohol sub. we got it to our shop. would not run stable. we went to alcohol and it ran fine. I have tried 2 other times to run alcohol subs and neither would run stable. went back alcohol. next time I try, i am going to buy the all new heidelberg af saphira rollers.

 

[Albert Noel]

ive never used it, only subs, but i personally would love to try running it.
it's my understanding (and this will be obvious to you guys) that ipa gives us a larger window for ink/water balance and evaporates faster, allowing lower water settings. i think is the only reason shops still use it. i think it's actually prohibited for use in the printing industry here in Ontario as i don't know of any other shops using it.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

ive never used it, only subs, but i personally would love to try running it.
it's my understanding (and this will be obvious to you guys) that ipa gives us a larger window for ink/water balance and evaporates faster, allowing lower water settings. i think is the only reason shops still use it. i think it's actually prohibited for use in the printing industry here in Ontario as i don't know of any other shops using it.

Albert,

My Ink Transfer Blade (ITB) technology was actually first tested on a web press that had ipa substitues and EB inks (similar to UV inks). Since the ITB makes the ink feed independent of the water setting, the operating window is huge. Much more than you would ever need. No ink water balancing and no chance of washout.

Besides the aim of the ITB of having consistent print density, the potential of redesigning the water feed becomes possible. It opens the possibility of simpler water feed concepts that have less negative affects on the print quality and the use of fountain solutions that are more environmentally friendly.

If the ITB ever becomes accepted, I am very curious on how the water feed can also be improved to make printing much more easy to operate and with more consistant print quality.

Erik
Toronto

 

[Sfdp2300]

We dont have any presses on alcohol but alot of our press people are! (Kidding!! or am I) Hmmmm?

we bought a 2003 sm52-4h from a printer in ga. it was run with prisco alcohol sub. we got it to our shop. would not run stable. we went to alcohol and it ran fine. I have tried 2 other times to run alcohol subs and neither would run stable. went back alcohol. next time I try, i am going to buy the all new heidelberg af saphira rollers.

Next time you try the substitue go with a softer derometer and less crown on your water rollers. When setting your water rollers go with a lighter setting to oscillators and plate with water rollers.

 

[Bob Peterson]

The biggest problem I have seen cause stability problems is due to how much etch and sub is being used. Most shops over dose. I have consistantly seen good results using a variety of inks on various presses using one and two step products.

Shops with the least problems are using R.O. water. Using a two step 3-4 ounces of etch per gallon should yield a conductivity between 1600-1800 micro siemens. When it comes to alcohol substitute less is always better. I would never exceed 2-ounces per gallon; I have seen excellent results in the 1-1.5 ounce range. When using a one step 4-6 ounces should suffice. Never use alcohol sub with a one step etch as this will overdose the fountain solution with alcohol sub. More is not better!

Keep in mind that alcohol sub doesn't evaporate like alcohol. Therefore, it is recommended that you drain and flush your tanks at the very least bi-weekly. The reason is this: throughout the week you are constantly adding fresh solution to your system to make up for evaporation that takes place durning the printing process. However, the alcohol sub doesn't evaporate causing the concentration level to increase until the tanks are drained. Too much alcohol sub will cause the inks to emulsify easily, slow ink dry times, and in some instantances cause chalking.

I recommend that you have a good calibrated conductiviy meter and refractometer. Take your water and record the conductivity and refractive index. Now carefully measure and mix your etch and record the conductivity and refractive index. Finally, carefully measure and mix in your alcohol sub and record the conductivity and refractive index.

Now that you have yourself a control standard. When you begin having problems you can take your measurements. When the conductivity of your fountain solution exceeds 2200 micro siemens it is contaminated and needs to be drained. The refractive index should also be monitored to determine concentration levels. I would recommend that you check your R.O. or tap water weekly before you mix as this will indicated when your R.O. filters need to be changed or you need to adjust your etch for the changes in the tap water. Also, check everthing after mixed to insure proper measurements / dosage was applied. Should you begin having stability problems on press you will easily be able to determine if the mix is incorrect or the problems is due to something else.

 

[rbailleu]

we tried alot of variations. and less concentrate was better. some times colder temp work sometimes warmer works. we do not have a conductivity meter, but next time I will get one. part of the problem is that the pressman doesn't really want to change. he did try but it was more work to change. we also run a great variety of stocks which can through a wrench in the works

 

[67drake]

Keep in mind that alcohol sub doesn't evaporate like alcohol. Therefore, it is recommended that you drain and flush your tanks at the very least bi-weekly. The reason is this: throughout the week you are constantly adding fresh solution to your system to make up for evaporation that takes place durning the printing process. However, the alcohol sub doesn't evaporate causing the concentration level to increase until the tanks are drained.
QUOTE]

I never knew this! I'll have to keep this in mind.
Thanks

 

[jlind]

Bob:
Can you tell us how to use the refractometer? What magnitude of change occurs with build up of alcohol substitute?
Why does too much alcohol sub lead to chalking? Isn't chalking what happens when all the vehicle drains into a very heavy coated sheet, like Kromekote, and the pigment scratches off easily, like carbon paper? Do you just mean the ink sets slowly and marks?

John Lind
Cranberry Township, PA
724-776-4718

 

[vansrv8er]

Conductivity is unique

Conductivity is unique

I agree with Bob except for one statement that I am sure Bob is aware but I would like to clarify. Conductivity is unique to each type of etch used. "Using a two step 3-4 ounces of etch per gallon should yield a conductivity between 1600-1800 micro siemens".
Keep in mind that conductivity has a unique characteristic of the type electrolite used. For example:
Magnesium Nitrate: 2 g in 1 L water yields a Conductivity = 850 µmhos/ cm. Zinc Nitrate: 2 g in 1 L water yields a Conductivity = 1000 µmhos/ cm so each manufacture or trade product from the same manufacture could have different cd numbers based on what is used. When I hear ,"my press only runs well @ 1750 mmhos" what is really being said is that 1750 happens to be the cd @ 3 oz or 4 oz etc. per gallon for the particular etch being used.
Good conversation guys! I love to hear the input and dialog

 

[Bob Peterson]

John,

Here is a link to the refractometer: Low-Cost Sugar And Salt Refractometers And Brix Refractometers - Cole-Parmer Catalog I have also attached a control document that I created for a customer using their etch and sub.

The refractometer must be zero'd using distilled water prior to use. To use the refractometer place 1-drop using a pipet of the solution to be measured on the glass window. Close the plastic hood make sure that there are no bubbles in the specimen as this will cause a false reading. Look through the eye piece and hold the instrument towards a light source. Take the measurement from the grid where the solid area meets the clear on the grid.

Regarding the chalking. You are correct in that one type of chalking is caused due to the varnish/vehicle portion diving into the substrate. Therefore, the pigment has no binder and it will scuff / rub off. Alcohol sub acts a very agressive ink solvent. Try using it some time to clean up dried ink. Excessive sub will breakdown the viscosity of the ink causing emulsification. This break down in viscosity is due to the molecular structure of the ink vehicle changing physical properties due to the sub. As the physical properties change they begin to loose their litho properties one being pigmnet binding, not to mention set speed, drying, and rub resistance. Without pigment binding you have a form of chalking.

Bob

 

[Darth Cantu]

Bob The Builder, you sound like an Ink Guy! You must have alot of problems with your ink. I hope your not using Superior.

 

[Bob Peterson]

Bob The Builder, you sound like an Ink Guy! You must have alot of problems with your ink. I hope your not using Superior.

You hit the nail on the head! I am indeed a inky. As far as problems with ink go, nobody is perfect. However, most of the ink problems that I see are with my competitors when the printers are calling me to provide them with a SUPERIOR product.

 

[UGS]

I just found this site, what a great source of information and discussions here! I work with a Pressroom supply company in Michigan that sells inks and consumables and I specialize in Pressroom Chemistry. Bob's refractometer is an excellent choice for checking the alcohol substiture percentages in your solution. There are other inexpensive types that work well that are listed on ebay and marketed towards that wine industry. You can pick those up around the same price as Bob's recommended unit as well.

Regarding the conductivity, vansrv8er hit the mark with his statement. I previously worked for a fountain solution company and many of our solutions have wide differences in conductivity ranges. Some were so low (ie 800 @ 4.0 oz per/gal) that we made variations of the same products and threw in more conductive material to raise the levels to more industry standard levels. Meaning that pressman felt like dosing conductivity ranges below 1000 were too low and therefore the solution wouldn't work.

As far as the number of shops still running alcohol. I get asked that alot throughout different parts of the Midwest. Most of our customers are in Michigan and Indiana, but the customers we have in say Florida run much more alcohol on average. This is mainly due to the fact that restrictions on VOCs are different in different parts of the country by both state and local law. It is much more strict in the Midwest and therefore less companies are allowed to run alcohol on average. Customers have explained to me that VOC regulation it is based on square footage of their buildings. Two of my customers when making additions added more square footage of storage space to raise their alotted VOC numbers for their pressrooms. This allowed them to run more aggresive washes and other products they couldn't previously do.

With the technology in today's fountain solutions, printers are able to run with operational windows similar to alcohol without running it. We carry 2 one step fountain solutions that we promote as alcohol replacing products that work better than any 2 step solutions I've sold. The toughest test are Alcolor Heidelberg presses that have been running alcohol exclusively. As long as your Durometer isn't too hard and the crown too aggressive, we've switched many of our customers off alcohol without any issues. The best results for our customers has been that less aggressive solutions tend to pull less material out of troubled stocks like offset paper. Printers that were experiencing high image failure problems with the plates, especially in their black or first down units have seen much better results off alcohol. Anyhow, enough babbling. Very interesting site. Please shoot me an e-mail if I can help with anything.

 

[loopyg66]

from my experience running alcohol these days mask problems due to operator inexperience/knowledge, and poor roller settings/maintenance. with the fountain solutions and subs of today, along with roller technology you should be able to print just as well as, if not better than, printing with alcohol.

I have been running alcohol free since 1988 and have seen huge strides in the etches and subs over the years, along with inks and rollers and see no reason to still have to use alcohol........MAYBE on certain substrates with conventional inks.

Bob's theory on flushing your tank twice a week due to alcohol sub percentages going up due to evaporation, sounds like a typical ink guy blaming the etch/sub for their ink not drying. Any shop that runs around the clock doesn't need to replenish water due to evaporation, it needs to be replaced due to USE......in other words, water going into the ink train or absorbed by paper. Unless the only thing that goes into the ink or paper is etch and water, and somehow the sub stays on the plate......kinda doubt that.

I run a press equipped with a flow-clear filter system and am able to go months without having to drain my tanks, and have not run into any issues that you claim can happen. Does this system somehow take out the excess sub that is building? Or maybe I'm running a FAR superior ink from a FAR off land that mysteriously fights and removes the excess sub that is building from evaporation.

The numbers that you give for conductivity don't work for every etch/sub combination either. Many start out above 2000 now with no ill affects. When using a filter system like flo-clear, and others, the conductivity will go well over 3000 with no print quality issues whatsoever.

 

[Bob Peterson]

from my experience running alcohol these days mask problems due to operator inexperience/knowledge, and poor roller settings/maintenance. with the fountain solutions and subs of today, along with roller technology you should be able to print just as well as, if not better than, printing with alcohol.

I have been running alcohol free since 1988 and have seen huge strides in the etches and subs over the years, along with inks and rollers and see no reason to still have to use alcohol........MAYBE on certain substrates with conventional inks.

Bob's theory on flushing your tank twice a week due to alcohol sub percentages going up due to evaporation, sounds like a typical ink guy blaming the etch/sub for their ink not drying. Any shop that runs around the clock doesn't need to replenish water due to evaporation, it needs to be replaced due to USE......in other words, water going into the ink train or absorbed by paper. Unless the only thing that goes into the ink or paper is etch and water, and somehow the sub stays on the plate......kinda doubt that.

I run a press equipped with a flow-clear filter system and am able to go months without having to drain my tanks, and have not run into any issues that you claim can happen. Does this system somehow take out the excess sub that is building? Or maybe I'm running a FAR superior ink from a FAR off land that mysteriously fights and removes the excess sub that is building from evaporation.

The numbers that you give for conductivity don't work for every etch/sub combination either. Many start out above 2000 now with no ill affects. When using a filter system like flo-clear, and others, the conductivity will go well over 3000 with no print quality issues whatsoever.

loopyg66 I can't agree with you more regarding running IPA vs. Sub. I do not agree with your theory regarding running for months on end without flushing your system no matter what type of filtration you are running. I have been into more shops than I can count that I have been called into where they have tried ink from a dozen suppliers without any success. There problems mysteriously disappeared after they did some basic maintenance and I was awarded the business.

As for your comment regarding me being a typical ink guy blaming the etch/sub for ink not drying, I only call them as I see them. I have gained my knowledge of the industry through press room trouble shooting, ink R&D, and tutelage under some of the best pressman in the country. When I run across a problem I confer with multiple industry resources before making a recommendation to aide the customer to resolve the problem with incurring excessive downtime expenses. I am held in the highest respect by my customers who I call my friends. Therefore, I know that I am not your typical ink guy. I could lower myself to your level and bash you but I hold myself to a higher level of professionalism.

 

[loopyg66]

I posted my response based on my experiences as well. I've been in the industry for over 20 years from a pressman in commercial shops to working for a large press manufacturer in their graphic center doing customer demos to travelling to customer sites for training and trouble shooting. in working with ink manufacturers and chemistry techs they all love to stand around and point fingers at each to where the problem is coming from. i can pass any gatf test with my 2 month old solvent (filtered with a floclear system) and do it on a regular basis in front of customers. that means solids using a pms grey and ghosting forms as well. NO, I do not work for floclear, nor do I get anything from them, I'm just a believer. this in combination with a great ink, chemistry and well maintained press allows me to do this.

my main point that I was trying to get across is that you can't come on here and make blankets statements as to how you need to do things. there are waaaaay too many variables to be able to do that. from inks, chemistry, substrates, roller combinations, and on and on. what works on one press may not always work on the same press sitting right next to it. how operaters run their press makes a huge difference as well. how clean they are with their equipment matters, too.

if being called a 'typical ink guy' hurt your feelings, then you might not want to be in the printing business. not necessarily the most 'pc' group around.

 

[Green Printer]

Loopyg66 I agree that you can go extended periods of time without flushing your system. We have only flushed our system 3 times since January 2004. Since 1997 we have only flushed our system 9 times.
I would not recommend this unless you have very good control of your pressroom variables and have suppliers that can consistently make the same product batch after batch.