In house press: Versant 180, Versant 80, or c70

[dnetcrawler]

Hello everyone,

This would be our first post on these forums, but we have spent a good deal of time reading the different threads with regards to both the Xerox c70 and Versant 180. We are a new Internet Service Provider in Mexico, and need the ability to print materials in house. We will be printing new promotions weekly, typically around 3k flyers/handouts weekly which we leave at customer's residences. We will also be printing bills, business cards, work order forms, etc. We are looking to make a long term investment, something that we can use for the next 5-7 years.

We initially started looking at the c70. The Mexico dealers have good deals on remanufactured (REMAN) units for around 8k and they provide Xerox warranties with them. We can get one for around 7-8k. The only thing that we are concerned with the c70 is that it does not handle 350gsm. We need 350gsm for our business cards, and perhaps other applications such as promotion posters to hang on local convenience stores.

Given 350gsm requirement, we started looking at the Versant 180, but these are only offered brand new. The price difference between the c70 and the v180 is quite high, we can buy a 3 x c70 Reman for the price of a v180. We do like that the v180 is new, and we feel it will last us longer, but hard to justify.

One of the dealers is offering a v80 REMAN. This might be a good middle ground, and it will do 350gsm.

Feedback request:

• Is there difference in the print quality from c70 to a v80/v180?
• What are the main differences between the v80 and the v180?
• We are leaning towards the v180, just because we feel it will have a longer life span. Should this be a concern at all? We do want something we can keep for 5-7 years.
• What is a fair market value range for a v80 REMAN? They are offering the unit at 18k, and we really feel that's a bit too high. We are leaning towards the new v180, even if it is 7k more.

With all that said, we need to place an order this week, as we open new markets and need to start our marketing campaigns there, so time is of the essence

 

[gazfocus]

In my opinion, for the uses you state, I would seriously just outsource your printing of flyers and business cards and buy a nice office laser printer for printing your bills, order forms, etc. The machines you are looking at are production printers designed to print 10's of thousands of sheets per month (if not more), and once you factor in the click charges, you're not going to save any money vs outsourcing.

However, if you are set on buying a printer to bring it in-house, I would go with the C70. It is not advertised as running 350gsm but I can guarantee it will do (we have a Xerox C560 which is oooooold and if we tell it that 300gsm is in the tray, it'll print on 350gsm all day long. The only thing I would consider is whether you can auto duplex on 350gsm. If you don't need double sided business cards, great, but if you do (and you don't want to faff around with manual duplex), you'll need the Versant 180.

Having said all of that, you also need to think of all the other equipment you'd need to buy to bring your production in-house. You'll need a guillotine (preferably an electric one with numbers you can punch in the measurements you're cutting), and you'll possibly need to laminate your business cards/posters/etc.

To answer your specific questions:
- There's no major difference in print quality from c70 to v80/v180 in my opinion.
- Main difference for your usage I believe is the auto duplex of heavier stock. The V80 can only auto duplex upto 300gsm whereas the v180 can do 350gsm, however, the V180 has a better imaging unit, and a few other upgrades but I don't think you'll notice for what you're doing.
- If the C70 and V80 are also being offered on a support contract with Xerox, this shouldn't really be a big concern because if parts fail (and they will), Xerox will replace them under the support contract free of charge. Of course, you pay a click charge for this but I wouldn't risk taking a production machine without a support contract.
- I'm in the UK so prices are like to be massively different, but when we bought our new machine (went for a Konica in the end), we got a quote for a V180 and with a light production finisher were quoted £22,000, and were quoted £9,000 for a refurbished V80, so to me 18K sounds very high for a refurbished V80. I'd definitely try speaking to a couple more dealers to get a better idea of pricing.

I hope this helps and good luck whatever you decide (and please do let us know what you decide)

 

[josep]

The main problem with versant 80/180. Is 2n btr. If you are using lot of coated paper this will be a problem.
The printer gets dirty with some stripes on the back of the paper, it is a problem of a piece called 2 btr, xerox has not solved the problem for 2 years. It is a worldwide problem. Now they are going to get a new 2btr model, but we have tried the beta, and it lasts a little longer but it has the same problems. Better also look at other brands other than xerox

 

[gazfocus]

The main problem with versant 80/180. Is 2n btr. If you are using lot of coated paper this will be a problem.
The printer gets dirty with some stripes on the back of the paper, it is a problem of a piece called 2 btr, xerox has not solved the problem for 2 years. It is a worldwide problem. Now they are going to get a new 2btr model, but we have tried the beta, and it lasts a little longer but it has the same problems. Better also look at other brands other than xerox

We have a similar problem with our Konica. They have corona wires for each colour and these get dirty quickly and cause banding. One engineer told us we weren’t using the printer enough. Another engineer actually decided to be helpful and showed us how to clean the corona wires and/or replace them (which is free as part of our service contract).

 

[wonderings]

Seems you will need to invest in more then just a printer if you are going this route. When printing business cards how are you going to cut them? Are you going to be printing 8.5 x 11 flyers 1 up? That is expensive especially when you can print 2 up, but then again you need to finish and cut.

I love the Versant series, we have a 2100 that has been a fantastic workhorse for us so not knocking the printer choice, just wondering if it really is the right move for an internet service company. I can see a network printer/photocopier for printing bills, but to do all your promo materials as well means you need finishing equipment as well.

Also there is no reason your posters should be printed on a 350 GSM stock. I get business cards, that has just become the norm here, but for things like posters it really is not needed especially since they are most likely going to be pinned to a wall somewhere.

 

[dnetcrawler]

Thank you everyone for the feedback.

in our calculations we are expecting 15k flyers a month on the first deployment, this will grow x 3 in the next 24 months. So we think the volume will be there. The real reason we are considering is because the locations we are deploying in, are not large metropolitan areas in Mexico, and the local print shops always send their work to Guadalajara. This is really not ideal for us, as we like to proof the work prior to sending the job off.

I'm a bit concerned about the 2nd BTR issue. Is this standard on all presses? Tech team is 2 hours away from our location, so this is a concern. Which other options should we considered, Canon or Ricoh? Support might be an issue for those brands here. Does the c70 have the same issues.

As far as finishers, this is what's on the docket:
• Double Feeder
• Booklet finisher + C/Z
• Interface
• two knife trimmer
• Square Fold Trimmer
• Guillotine
• Business card cutter

Best Regards,
Dnet

 

[wonderings]

All digital presses will have issues that need support so you an expect needing to call them in or have skilled people who work for you who know the ins and outs of the machine to fix them... would not count on the latter. Content can be proofer through email, we always send PDF proofs before printing for content.

As others have said I would suggest connecting with a printer for your needs. Get a few press samples for the first runs, but after that you should know what to expect in terms of quality from your printer. 15k flyers is not a lot, the V180 is rated for around 80,000 a month.

Xerox, Canon, Ricoh, Kodak, they are all big players in this field, does not hurt to shop around and make them work for your business.

 

[pippip]

I don't know, I still think you're way below volume needed to justify the need for such an outlay.

Did you spec these or the sales rep?

• two knife trimmer
• Square Fold Trimmer
• Guillotine
• Business card cutter

If its the rep then I think you're being taken for a ride, we're a full time print shop and don't even have all of those!

Also just be aware digital presses do not hold their value second hand, at least not in Ireland. If in 4-5 years you find you simply don't need it and its not working out as you expected you'll get very little for the press, if anything, as the tech just moves so fast. Its alot of money down the drain. I'd try and lease the minimal machine you think you'll need, they'll always welcome you with open arms if it goes well and you need to upgrade to bigger.

 

[wonderings]

Also just be aware digital presses do not hold their value second hand, at least not in Ireland. If in 4-5 years you find you simply don't need it and its not working out as you expected you'll get very little for the press, if anything, as the tech just moves so fast. Its alot of money down the drain. I'd try and lease the minimal machine you think you'll need, they'll always welcome you with open arms if it goes well and you need to upgrade to bigger.

Few shops want used digital presses partly because the big guys do not want to offer service plans for them or if they do the click charge is very high.

 

[dnetcrawler]

I don't know, I still think you're way below volume needed to justify the need for such an outlay.

We'll get to 30-45k a month in the next 24 months. Locality is still and issue. We have made the decision to move forward, and are comfortable with the decision.

If its the rep then I think you're being taken for a ride, we're a full time print shop and don't even have all of those!

We actually got a heck of a deal on all these, are they are not new, but REMAN. Less than 6k for all of them, with warranty. We are quite happy with this part

 

[wonderings]

I do think you will be happy with the Versant, it is a solid machine. I print #10 envelopes on our 2100 and it handles them perfectly, rarely jams and I mean RARELY. I run 5000 + and never have a stop.

 

[msaeger]

How about print the flyers and send out the business cards then you don't need to get something that will run the thick paper. I would think you could run posters on some lighter paper too.

 

[jwheeler]

Tech team is 2 hours away from our location, so this is a concern. Which other options should we considered, Canon or Ricoh? Support might be an issue for those brands here.

These days, all of the big brands offer good units for you're needs. Besides Xerox, Canon, and Ricoh, there is also Konica Minolta which you didn't mention. Kodak will probably be out of your price range. I think it comes down to service as the biggest factor for you. Since Xerox is 2 hours away, you will not be able to count on same day, and possibly not even next day response on site. Then after they are on site, getting parts that they do not carry in their vehicle will be the next challenge. Check out what vendor(s) are closest and can offer some sort of guarantee for on-site response.

Another thing to consider after getting all of this equipment is having someone who knows workflow to print and finish everything in the most cost effective and efficient manner.

 

[Shaare]

The 2nd BTR problem they refer to is not something that affects all stocks and has been mostly fixed by the addition of a fly wheel years ago. I would welcome a private email and a test file to print on a 180 and a 3100 to test honestly.

 

[pippip]

The 2nd btr problem isnt fixed with fly wheel. The 2nd btr problem is its inability to keep itself clean and thus marks the sheets. The flywheel is to fix the banding issue which occurred and still to a certain extent still occurs within the print quality.

I wouldn't let the 2nd btr effect your decision. Xerox acknowledge this issue and will fix once reported. Actually easy to replace yourself when needed. On occasion I've had it run to its expected life. Depends on how much coated stock is run and large volume black jobs wreck it.

 

[dnetcrawler]

Just as an update. We ended up buying the C70 Remanufactured. We really wanted the V180, but I think we are going to get our feet wet with one. Once we have, we can trade it in.

Here is the configuration:
Booklet Maker Finisher (Light Production Finisher with Booklet Maker)
2 Tray Oversized High Capacity Feeder (2 Tray OHCF)
Xerox® EX-i C60/C70 Print Server Powered by Fiery®

As for other things we also purchased:
- Challenge Spartan 185 paper cutter.
- BAUM 714XLT Ultrafold paper folder.


There is a company langrafix-fiery-controllers, on eBay selling a fiery to upgrade to external fiery for $1500. It also includes the Graphic Arts Package Edition & Full FACI Monitor, Keyboard & Mouse Access. Has anyone tried them?

Xerox FIERY EX-C60/C70 Server *UPGRADE* from E100-05, E200-01 E200-05 or E200-08


Any good links to help understand paper selection and different vendors?


Will update on the experience with this set up.

 

[DevostD]

The 2nd btr problem isnt fixed with fly wheel. The 2nd btr problem is its inability to keep itself clean and thus marks the sheets. The flywheel is to fix the banding issue which occurred and still to a certain extent still occurs within the print quality.

I wouldn't let the 2nd btr effect your decision. Xerox acknowledge this issue and will fix once reported. Actually easy to replace yourself when needed. On occasion I've had it run to its expected life. Depends on how much coated stock is run and large volume black jobs wreck it.

@pippip have you had any further issue with the 2nd BTR? Have there been part upgrades, etc?

 

[pippip]

@pippip have you had any further issue with the 2nd BTR? Have there been part upgrades, etc?

Hi,

Still a problem, they showed me how to swap it out, only takes 2 mins so I just keep one on site ready.
Sometimes I get a large volume off 100K+ before it happens but I've had it happen after only 20k.
Depends on types of stock and jobs ran. Silks/Satins cause it alot but uncoated and gloss not so much.
The more coverage the better on a job.

 

[Possumgal]

As far as posters, we've always run them on C1S 10 pt., no problem. Yes, you can lie to the machines about weight to a certain extent, but you're pressing your luck if you do that with coated stock in my opinion, what with toner adherence. If you get a Fiery with CWS, you can tinker with alignment if you have to manually duplex. I always do anyway when running auto duplex, because the machines never seem to align the second side as well as they tell you they do.

 

[mojoprime]

did you get a service contract or anything with your purchase? if so, if you replace that bustled Fiery with an external you'll void the agreement unless they'll accept it -- but imagine they either tried to sell you that when you bought it and you passed or they didn't think you needed it. if that doesn't bother you than you'll get way more out of your machine with the external.