junior pre-press operator_why?

[dabob]

Fair enough, but we "oldies" started on the bench, stripping films and making coffee for the "elders". When started the computer era, there was nobody who knew what to do. No teachers, just experience and guts! How do you teach that? They have to come to us with some experience. Can't fix client errors if you are one who makes the same mistakes.

True . . . I do some days long for the contact frame bathed in soft red light and the smell of a fresh roll of rubylith . . . but you just need to find somebody with a passion for the business and a willingness to admit that they don't know more than you do and can learn from it . . . . then . . .. you might let them live to become a senior rather than send them to a painful death as a shop boy with a broom and letting them help in the bindery . . lol

 

[katjt]

thanks guys - I have only just found this site. Being unemployed at the moment makes for a bit of boredom. I have not laughed so much for a long time.... Being of the old fart variety, I would never go back to the rubylith days. We needed more cutting dexterity then, this is more fun now, and the way that things have moved in the commercial print industry over the last 15 years or so is absolutely amazing. Personally I love it. You learn something new every day. Over here in New Zealand, it is the dying throes of heatset web offset. Digital print is now here. Maybe because our population, and therefore our runs are so small. Who knows.

All I know is that it seems to be an excuse to down size the workforce, and make people do more for less pay. You don't get rich in print any more (did you ever?!), but I still love it. A chance to work with others and be part of a team - deal to/or with the customers, while annoying the pressroom boys and the bindery. It's great. Only thing is now being an old fart it's not so easy to find another opening.
But we get there. Trouble with print these days, is that a lot of those running the shops (over here anyway) had no basis in print, and don't understand the processes. Computers - digital - or not - there are still processes.
BTW sorry if my terminology is different from yours. You lot seem to be mostly over the ditch in the USA or there abouts? I'm also female (BTW also ride a bike)

 

[giant1958]

with client supplying jobs that are never ready to print, with diecuts backwards, rgb, no bleeds, wrong roll fold panels (and is just the beginning) the job of pre-press operator has never been so important like now. We are paid peanuts, asked long hours and lot of responsibility. We need to have eyes on the back of our heads. What more do you want from us. Waste time trying to teach absolute useless apprentice people the job? Teaching people paid even less than us, who have no absolute clue how this work got to be done, taking the blame is something goes wrong because "you should check their jobs"? What else! Stick a broom up our @@# and sweep the floor while working? No way. Sorry for the rant!

so true!!!

 

[dabob]

With client supplying jobs that are never ready to print, with diecuts backwards, RGB, no bleeds, wrong roll fold panels (and is just the beginning) the job of pre-press operator has never been so important like now. We are paid peanuts, asked long hours and lot of responsibility. We need to have eyes on the back of our heads. What more do you want from us. Waste time trying to teach absolute useless apprentice people the job? Teaching people paid even less than us, who have no absolute clue how this work got to be done, taking the blame is something goes wrong because "you should check their jobs"? What else! Stick a broom up our @@# and sweep the floor while working? No way. Sorry for the rant!

boy this is getting old . . . I have had three "assistants" in my pre-press dept and to tell the truth the worst one I had was one of the first service bureau owners in the area and the best one was a conventional artist that came to us asking if she could learn the biz . . . we made her a deal that she would get a computer and take the local "learn the apps" school (I know I will be served by a cease and desist letter from apple from that) we would pay her for 3 days and she would show up for two educational days either at work or at school . .. . best investment I ever made . . . the third had a pinch of application info but would listen and he learned too . . . give me someone who knows that they are ignorant but also knows that they are not stupid and have the passion for the trade.

Personally I have been blessed by knowing Russel Preston Brown, and other people at Adobe in equally low positions whom I can call for help . . . but we were all ignorant at one point in our careers and the difference is most cases is someone took a chance on us and we made the cut . . .. otherwise we would be working at oilchangers or a safeway . . . hummmm is that a bad thing??????

 

[Rikkie]

Firstly, let me make it clear that I'm a survivor from the old school. Formal and on-the-job training in press engineering, thrown into establishing an inplant and making it work. It was a wild ride at times, but great - a lifelong learning curve.

Back to the point - how can one expect an art college graduate to understand what the pressman needs in order to produce the job with minimum hassle (read risk)? Why does the pressman get uptight when he's given 9pt text to print in 4 colours, incorrectly set knockouts / overprints etc? Spare a thought for the poor finishing guy who needs to make (unauthorised) changes to the layout of a cover to avoid punching spiralbind holes through text that has been set too close to the margin? Ridiculous? I've seen it all, and worse.

Hence - is the 'junior' not the graduate fresh from college, and the 'senior' the college graduate with a good couple of years' experience, getting his / her hands dirty and getting to know the processes from repro through to dispatch? Do I hear 'Not my job" somewhere? I respectfully rest my case

 

[tmiller_iluvprinting]

I've seen quite a few changes since I started in the Printing business. Hell, we were still setting moveable type when I got the print fever in high school. Separations and screening were still being done on the camera and in the darkroom. I saw the birth(and subsequent death) of the analog and digital scanner. I remember when the colorkey was a contract proof, and control of the cromalin was a single solid density reading. There was chemical dot etching, hand sensitized and processed 'R' plates that sometimes required multiple burns/color. I've seen all this, but there is still not a day that goes by that I don't learn something. I've forgotten more about printing than most current tech & college grads will learn in there lifetime, but I don't hold it against them. Some are good, some are poor, just like us oldtimers. If I was running a company, I would want to train someone who had little experience. Someone I could mold into the employee my company needs, someone who would grow with my company. The thing I notice is that the kids coming out of school seem to have the feeling that they are entitled to everything that I have earned with 30+ years of continual service in the printing industry. It takes time kids, and unless your daddy owns the business, hunker down and get to work. Maybe someday you can post a rant like this!
Regards,
Todd

 

[LKent]

I just have to laugh...being in the under 30 age group, I fnd it down right insulting for many (not all) of the older people who try to keep the younger people down in any field, when it should be the opposite, considering we all start off wet behind th ears.

I also find a big issue when one of those young useless juniors comes around your job, it usually is because the HR or owner put them there, and not usually because of their talents or performance.

No art? skill? or talent left with this modern way of printing? Man you are getting old if you believe that mess, and to me that's all mental. Art can be created from anything, thats art appreciation 101, and in this technological age, art can be interpreted in ways never done before. So just because it took more sweat to do something ages ago dont try to minimize people's talents now...because in the real world there is no "easy button".

Just had to get that out. And also they most likely want a Junior Operator to train that person the way they want, they probably want someone with decent skills, who is flexible, and looking to enter the industry and willing to work for those peanuts because regardless of age we all need to eat.

 

[margadri]

I just have to laugh...being in the under 30 age group, I fnd it down right insulting for many (not all) of the older people who try to keep the younger people down in any field, when it should be the opposite, considering we all start off wet behind th ears.

I also find a big issue when one of those young useless juniors comes around your job, it usually is because the HR or owner put them there, and not usually because of their talents or performance.

No art? skill? or talent left with this modern way of printing? Man you are getting old if you believe that mess, and to me that's all mental. Art can be created from anything, thats art appreciation 101, and in this technological age, art can be interpreted in ways never done before. So just because it took more sweat to do something ages ago dont try to minimize people's talents now...because in the real world there is no "easy button".

Just had to get that out. And also they most likely want a Junior Operator to train that person the way they want, they probably want someone with decent skills, who is flexible, and looking to enter the industry and willing to work for those peanuts because regardless of age we all need to eat.

Sorry, but you got the problem the wrong way.
I don't have any problems with apprentices or young people.
I believe there are many people talented and willing to work hard.
The problem is that in today printing world there is no more time to train or get trained.
Everything is quick and cheap. Production goes on no matter what.
They throw young people to the lions without being prepared, and load the supposed "teachers" with responsibility they don't need.

 

[katjt]

In reply to the last post by margadri, I have say that it is rather sad things have come to such a point of no time for training and throwing the youngsters to the lions.

I started off on the benches. I was always happy to show someone else what they needed to know when there was a quiet moment in the workflow. And there are always quiet moments here and there. Print is very deadline driven, it's the nature of the beast. I have seen so many changes in the lat 15 years or so, that it would be impossible not to learn on the job. besides every place of work runs differently, and we all use various softwares. How else could you learn. It's time that companies gave some time to their staff, the workers are the ones that generate the money flow and can make and break a company (ie shoddy work). I do not mean to stand on a soap box, and yes - production still carries on, and we all have to clean up behind some or other incompetent at some time in our careers, but the majority are cool. I just love the entire environment.

 

[Joe]

It used to be you could train people or be trained during slower times. Now you are expected to punch out and go home.

 

[bprint_tampabay]

Look I am not going to go into how old I am or how many effin years I have in this business, but I do have to say that the level of craftsmanship has deteriorated exponentially over the years.

I spend a fair portion of my day showing production managers, sales people, and customer service people how to run jobs on the digital printer(s) because some a-hole sent them a pdf that has no bleeds, marks or anything else that we would do as a matter of course because we have been doing this forever.

There is no going back, just because. Keep up with the times, and try to get through another day, don't live in the past.

Although it was freakin' better then, wasn't it?

 

[margadri]

There is no going back, just because. Keep up with the times, and try to get through another day, don't live in the past.

Although it was freakin' better then, wasn't it?

I still have a good 15 years before retiring. I not going to accept that without a fight.

 

[tmiller_iluvprinting]

Look I am not going to go into how old I am or how many effin years I have in this business, but I do have to say that the level of craftsmanship has deteriorated exponentially over the years.

Craftsmanship-we're no longer craftsmen, we are now technicians. Printing is no longer an 'art' it is a manufacturing process. Someone once asked me after I made that statement, 'what's the difference between a craftsman and a technician?' I answered "about $6 an hour!"

Regards,
Todd

 

[EZPower]

After being in the industry for over 15 years, here is what I've learned. There is no such a thing as an OLD TIMER.

1. Production people are ether hard working, or not. Age has nothing to do with it. There are plenty of Old people in our industry who learned computers and still know how to strip. These guys are a gold mine.

2. You wouldn't believe how many times our pre-press ass was saved by having some one who knows old school printing and stripping to guide us to produce a better product. By working together we learn and get better.

3. More files are coming from instant designers who know absolutely nothing about the printing process. Example: Two color job came in as RGB. When asked why this was created this way, the answer was "I heard that each printing company prints at different screen angles, So I created the file in a way where you guys can choose which screen angle to print." Well, that explains the RGB.

4. Printing is still an art. Owners think that printing has some how became an assembly line were any person will do. In Minnesota I'm seeing more salespeople moving to different company's where Old Timers still know what they are doing.

5. The new generation of owners are expecting Enron profits at the employees expense.

 

[dabob]

After being in the industry for over 15 years, here is what I've learned. There is no such a thing as an OLD TIMER.

1. Production people are ether hard working, or not. Age has nothing to do with it. There are plenty of Old people in our industry who learned computers and still know how to strip. These guys are a gold mine.

2. You wouldn't believe how many times our pre-press ass was saved by having some one who knows old school printing and stripping to guide us to produce a better product. By working together we learn and get better.

3. More files are coming from instant designers who know absolutely nothing about the printing process. Example: Two color job came in as RGB. When asked why this was created this way, the answer was "I heard that each printing company prints at different screen angles, So I created the file in a way where you guys can choose which screen angle to print." Well, that explains the RGB.

4. Printing is still an art. Owners think that printing has some how became an assembly line were any person will do. In Minnesota I'm seeing more salespeople moving to different company's where Old Timers still know what they are doing.

5. The new generation of owners are expecting Enron profits at the employees expense.

bruceprint . . . it seems to me after saying there is no such thing as an "Old Timer" you talk about them several times in the next 5 statements . . .. and if there were not "Old Timers" then there would be any junior prepress operators since you have to have a junior something to make a senior something . . .


being an old timer my self (since 69 in printing) I think about 42 years in the business qualifies me for that title . . . and I have to agree with most of the statements you made except the one saying I don exist then going on to prove that I do . . . . lol

but in reality the new generation just doesn't get how ink goes on paper and if you don't have a feel for that everything else is just window dressing

my 2 cents

 

[prepressbb]

Craftsmanship-we're no longer craftsmen, we are now technicians. Printing is no longer an 'art' it is a manufacturing process. Someone once asked me after I made that statement, 'what's the difference between a craftsman and a technician?' I answered "about $6 an hour!"

I'm Sorry but, YOU are no longer a craftsman, don't say we because you could only speak for yourself and your surroundings. I work in a full flexo print shop, started off as a pressman, moved to pre-press. Did stripping, you name it in prepress i did it, then we converted over to digital plate making and color management, all it did was make it easier but it still requires the same knowledge to determine what can print from what cant...yes i admit, some things change but the drive and passion at my shop is all still there. I could tell you some of the things that we produce on our flexo presses, some ppl say its impossible and to me thats not being a technician, if thats being a tech, tell me why others cant produce what we do using all the same equipment. I can honestly say that from being here at my job for many years, we have alot of CRAFTSMEN and not just technicians.

And my input as to why a junior: thats simple, "its easier to teach a new dog both new and old tricks" try telling a guy doing prepress for 30 years that its possible to print gradients dropping right off to zero without a problem.

 

[tmiller_iluvprinting]

I can honestly say that from being here at my job for many years, we have alot of CRAFTSMEN and not just technicians.
.

When is last time you saw an advertisement for a printing craftsman(flexo or otherwise?) Don't kid yourself, the craftsman has gone the way of sealing wax, handset type, magnesium etchings, and the rubber plate. Printing(Flexo and otherwise) has become a manufacturing process, and if you're doing it, rest assured someone else is probably doing it also.

Regards,
Todd

 

[giant1958]

Craftsmanship-we're no longer craftsmen, we are now technicians. Printing is no longer an 'art' it is a manufacturing process. Someone once asked me after I made that statement, 'what's the difference between a craftsman and a technician?' I answered "about $6 an hour!"

Regards,
Todd

so so true........

 

[giant1958]

After being in the industry for over 15 years, here is what I've learned. There is no such a thing as an OLD TIMER.

1. Production people are ether hard working, or not. Age has nothing to do with it. There are plenty of Old people in our industry who learned computers and still know how to strip. These guys are a gold mine.

2. You wouldn't believe how many times our pre-press ass was saved by having some one who knows old school printing and stripping to guide us to produce a better product. By working together we learn and get better.

3. More files are coming from instant designers who know absolutely nothing about the printing process. Example: Two color job came in as RGB. When asked why this was created this way, the answer was "I heard that each printing company prints at different screen angles, So I created the file in a way where you guys can choose which screen angle to print." Well, that explains the RGB.

4. Printing is still an art. Owners think that printing has some how became an assembly line were any person will do. In Minnesota I'm seeing more salespeople moving to different company's where Old Timers still know what they are doing.

5. The new generation of owners are expecting Enron profits at the employees expense.

I could agree with you more....been doing this (old way and new) for over 30 years and I still fall back on the things that i learned on a stripping table but the also almost every day still learn something new. It a ever-changing business and us "old-timers" that could change with the times are still in the the biz. I didnt get into printing to make a fortune but it has put food on my familys table for a long time!

 

[giant1958]

Look I am not going to go into how old I am or how many effin years I have in this business, but I do have to say that the level of craftsmanship has deteriorated exponentially over the years.

I spend a fair portion of my day showing production managers, sales people, and customer service people how to run jobs on the digital printer(s) because some a-hole sent them a pdf that has no bleeds, marks or anything else that we would do as a matter of course because we have been doing this forever.

There is no going back, just because. Keep up with the times, and try to get through another day, don't live in the past.

Although it was freakin' better then, wasn't it?

know the feelimg!!!