KM6501 vs c900 vs X700

[Mark H]

We're a KM1050 shop running VDP on 4/4 shells (24# matte) done off site. I want to bring color in-house. Nothing fancy, maybe a few color maps, logos, and some light trans promo. No need for high-end photo realism, just good quality color matching (for logos) and the need to handle vdp where almost all data on the page changes with every page.

Again, we're a KM shop, running 5 KM1050 and love them. Great machines, can't seem to kill them (knock on wood). Our IKON reps can't sell us the 6501 we want (again, we LIKE the 1050 box) but say the Ricoh c900 is better. Another vendor sells the 6501, but tells us we should buy their Xerox 700 instead and (of course) that vendor is owned by Xerox.

So, again, knowing that we're not going to do high-end photo printing what's the better box? Next is which is the better RIP, the Fiery, or the CREO?

Thanks,

Mark H

 

[Craig]

My OPINION based ONLY on seeing the machines at demos/shows.....

If you want a high end copier then the KM and Xerox 700 are the boxes. If you want an entry level production device (I hate the term press) than the Ricoh would be a choice.

Fiery vs Creo is like Ford vs Chevy or Miller vs Budwiser, I prefer Fiery only because I have been using them for 12 years and am comfortable with them.

 

[lfelton]

I think that the major difference with the C900 compared to the others are that it runs at rated speed on all stocks and it runs slightly faster overall.

Personal experience on the 6501 (we have two so far) is that they will happily run all day every day and I've been pleased with the reliability. Image quality is very good, I haven't seen anything much better short of an iGen4 or a Indigo. We run coated (standard triple coated litho stock), uncoated and litho book wove paper and get great results. FTB registration is pretty good if you understand how to set up the machine properly. Certainly not without its faults and limitations, but good bang for your buck.

Colour matching is a challenge, but when you understand how the machine is set up and internally calibrated it's possible to get reasonably close. I doubt very much that a C900 is better, I think you would need to go up to a Xerox with ACQS (minimum 7002) to get the tools to make colour consistency "easy". And look how many years it took Xerox to figure out that was necessary!

I did look at the C900, but was not happy with the image quality. Apart from that, it appears to be a fine machine and I'd certainly look at one again.

I think all 3 vendors make good kit, but you will need to check the detailed specs to see which match your requirements. Once you've done that, it comes down to basic math (ROI) and whether you can get good service from the vendor.

Hope that helps.

 

[ShortRunMagazines]

I have had the 6500 (predecessor to 6501) and didn't like it. I got offered a smokin deal on a 6500 demo and turned it down about an hour ago. The thing I don't like on the KM Color boxes, is then tend to easily trash drums and the charge wires constantly need to be watched as they will cause streaks in the print.

I demo'd the C900 and ran a customer job on it. The customer rejected the job because they didn't like the quality. I don't think you should run anything gloss on the 900 personally (at least until they modify the machine to be more glossy and less sand-papery (my own technical term). I will say I was impressed with the speed. Registration is good (not perfect as sales will tell you, but easily within a mm FTB) and the color seemed fairly accurate. The main issue we had was every print looked and felt like it had Matte UV Coating on it, even the 80# Gloss Txt!

I just sent the email to the Xerox dealer letting them know we are signing on a DC700. I don't like the price of the machine (nearly 3 times the KM 6500 demo) but I feel it's a better machine and the Customer Replacable Drums/Fusers should make it achieve far greater uptime.

 

[John Morton]

KM vs Ricoh vs Xerox

KM vs Ricoh vs Xerox

We have looked at the KM 6501, The Ricoh C900s and the Xerox 700. We use at present a Xerox 250 with a splash rip. We are looking for better speed and quality. The Xerox 700 is just a sped up 250 (from what I see) and I have heard they are having colour and paper problems as well as fuser issues (Check that with an honest tech guy) The KM was ok but it banded gradations and the colour looked soft. And since Ikon can't sell them now I am concerned about service. The Ricoh that we saw C900s was amazing, it had a high end Fiery with full graphics package. and runs at 90 impression per minute all weights. Our client compared the colour from our Xerox 250 with splash to the Ricoh and liked the Ricoh way better. We are leaning toward Ricoh. But are keeping our eyes, ears and minds open.

 

[minutemanjon]

Km6501

Km6501

We have been running a km6501 for a couple of months with no significant issues after the initial breakin.
Depending on your mission and niche -
Image is very good.
Creo wins over Fiery in our experience with both.
Cost and service are king for us and so far we have chosen wisely.

 

[joetheprinter]

I hear from the field that Xerox 700 suffers from fuser problems. The heat roll gets damaged very easily and its a struggle maintaining multiple fusers. Can anyone elborate on this?

 

[RKS]

700 Fuser

700 Fuser

We keep 4 fusers on-hand for the different sizes of stock we use. Is it optimum production wise to have to remember to change them, not really. But, it sure does beat ruining them because your running heavy weight cover and getting creases in them at the different sizes. I've heard from users of other manufacturers that they have to have tec-reps out to change them which results in downtime. This sure beats that.

We have noticed that the fusers being delivered now seem to have some sort of coating on them, which if start right off running heavy coverage the toner is picked off the sheets. So, what we've been doing is running about 10 sheets of the front to back registration sheet and that seems to eliminate the problem. We have noticed also that we have been able to turn the transfer lower on the amount of toner being laid down with the new fusers.

As far as color consistency is concerned, it does great. Fuji set up our color management and it's great on our Fiery rip.

We're also doing about 140,000 clicks per month on the 700 and 95% of those are 12 x 18 or 13 x 19

 

[KMGI Sales]

Mark , if you are already running KM1050's, you will be hard pressed to find anything out on the world of digital that will match up to those devices on fuser temperatures. Especially when running shells. Your best bet right now is a C6501, when trying to match up the fuser temps, which can and will rip toner from the paper if one's device has a higher fuser temp than the shell you have created. I am unsure where Xerox's fuser temp is on the 700, although I agree with Craig, if you want a true produciton machine go with Xerox or KM, if you want entry level go with Ricoh

 

[Craig]

KMGI - Please re-read my post I refereed to KM 6501 and Xerox 700 as high end COPIERS!

 

[KMGI Sales]

Craig, basing your opinion on Demo's and shows is nice, but if thats where you base your opinion on what is or is not a production device, then I prefer my experience with the devices above in the field in real world situations. If your calling the Ricoh a production device, even if its only entry level, then I suggest you see that machine in action in the field before you cast such opinion, as Demo's and trade shows are hardly the place to base an opinion on any machine...=0)

 

[Craig]

If demo's and trade shows are "hardly the place to base an opinion on any machine" (your words) then what the hell are they for!!!! If I'm in the market to buy a new machine how then do I "base my opinion"? Do I take your word for it, or do I run my own jobs on a "Demo" unit to see how it performs? Do you think I should have production level devices installed on my shop floor to base my opinion?

Let's see, my 8000AP is 18 feet long and weighs in the neighborhood on 3000 pounds, it was delivered in 7 pieces and 15 boxes, took almost 2 days to assemble. Do you think every manufacture would be willing to foot the bill to do this, just for a demo?

KM6501 and Xerox 700 are jacked up color copiers, being over sold based on an entry level cost. Lets face it, they are what they are fast plastic that serves a need, just not for everyone.

 

[KMGI Sales]

Craig if the manufacturer is not willing to stand behind a demo product put on your floor, then in my opinion the product is no good.

I say the trade shows are a horrible place to demo a unit, as you have no idea what the manufacturer has done to the machine prior to you seeing it. You can run your jobs all you wish on a demo unit, and I can take any demo unit and make it look fantastic, but its still not real world pounding, that the average commercial shop would do to a machine on a daily basis.

You also have no idea what the service will be like on the machine you put down on your floor, as you never see it. The demo professionals at trade shows are exactly that, demo professionals, they are not your average service tech in the field.

So if you wish to base you opinion on a demo model, so be it, I just think a real world test is the best option, and word of mouth from existing customers goes alot farther than a demo run at a trade show.

 

[KMGI Sales]

Also Craig, I have placed numerous demo unit on the floor at a customer's shop, on a 30 , 60 or 90 demo, based on performance, if the machine performs, the customer keeps the machine, if it doesn't we put it back in the box, and take it away. While I can't say that 100% of my boxes have stayed at a customer location, as I don't think anyone can, I would say if I placed 100 machines, that 98 of them would stick. Thats a darn good ratio if you ask me, and one I am willing to take each and everyday.

 

[ssga-cm]

Dear Mark H,

We are an in-plant production/design unit for a large investment bank and last February leased a new C900 Pro after a lot of research and a competitive bidding process invloving the Xerox 7000AP, the Canon 7000 and the Ricoh C900 Pro. We selected the C900 partially on price (Xerox was very, very competitive and had a great machine) and mostly on performance, fit (we had limited space), and ROI.
After bringing it in (it was a first production generation machine) we experienced serious and continuing jamming, but as we had a 100% satisfaction guarantee in our lease and the IKON-Ricoh folks just swapped out the old mainframe unit and gave us a brand new 2nd generation machine which has been performing flawlessly.
Several people on this posting have been mentioning this machine's ability to "print at full rated speed" regardless of paper weight. That is a little bit misleading. If you run ONLY a specific weight paper that meets the parameters of the machine, it will run at rated speed; but it will not if you are running multiple media at very different weights.
We found one other flaw with the C900, the service techs for the machine had no opportunity to go to school on the non-Ricoh peripherals, i.e., the in-line GBC punch and the Plockmatic bookletmaker. Make sure that these details are covered in any service agreement you enter into if you buy the machine. Overall I've found that the color is excellent and consistent and we love the speed.

Regards,
ssga-cm

 

[Craig]

Again I stand by what I said, you may be able to toss your box of fast plastic on someones floor, but when you get into a real production level it doesn't happen. Not everyone has an extra 250 square feet or the additional electrical requirements to bring in a production level demo unit.

As far as "Demo Professionals" their just other sales and tech people, half of the booths I stop at, I know more about their product then they do, just by reading the brochures!

Do you really think Kodak will drop off a Nexpress, or Xerox an iGen or 8000AP or Canon a 7000VP or even Ricoh a C900 for a demo.... your on crack! One of my feeders for my 8000AP is bigger than the 6500 print engine.