Komori System Web VS Heidelberg web 8

[n-iprinter]

Hi all, new member here. I am a Printroom Managaer for a Sheetfed Printer based in ireland. we currently run Heidelberg and MAN Sheetfed Presses, aged between 1990 - 1995. Due to a change in the Market we are now in managment are keen to replace 2 of our oldest manual sheetfeds for a used older half size web, and i am inclinded to agree with this move.

However although i am mechanically and technically minded, i have never run any web press although do have a very basic knowledge, so the choice is quite a difficult one to make. the owners have located a 1990 heidelberg web 8 and a 1992 komori system 20, both have butler stands and quadtech register/cutoff cntrls. on the face of it spec wise they seem very similar but i would like opinions on pros and cons of either and specifically ease of use.

we print mainly 115 gloss 4 col and sheeted.

thanks

 

[Printmac]

Hi
I am also new here
As far as my personal experince on a Heidelberg Web 8 I would say you can't go wrong on that little press!
Only ever worked on Heidelberg webs in South Africa
Served my time on a Web 8 and have since only run M600s (16 page)
I also have experience on sheetfed,so I would say the transition from a Heidelberg sheetfed to a Heidelberg web 8 will not be drastic seeing as you are technicaly and mechanicaly minded and already have experience with Heidelberg "technology"
The CPC's should be identical
The (I presume Vits) sheeter is straight forward and practical
Folder can do just about any fold thinkable
There are in-line perforating units for your notching cutting and scoring.
Just all round I think its a brilliant piece of engineering that to this day there is not much that would change on a Web 8,except for maybe automatic plate up.I myself could do a 8 plate change in under 7 minutes so that is no big deal
The only downsides to this press would be no CLC (closed loop inking system) and no automatic blanket wash
If there's anything else you would like to know feel free to contact me

 

[n-iprinter]

Thanks for you Help, Originaly we were going to go straigt for the heidelberg however after speaking to a few people we were told the komori is a Brilliant Machine, but i dont htink they are as common as the heidelberg so finding someone who has operated both will be difficult.

Thanks again for your help

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Komori v Heidelberg

Komori v Heidelberg

Hello N-Iprinter

It pains me to say this ! depending on the Web products you intend 50/50% Folded/ Sheeted ???

I would recommend the Heidelberg Web 8 simply because of the better Folder on this press.


Regards, Alois

 

[n-iprinter]

Hello N-Iprinter

It pains me to say this ! depending on the Web products you intend 50/50% Folded/ Sheeted ???

I would recommend the Heidelberg Web 8 simply because of the better Folder on this press.


Regards, Alois

Hello Mr Senefelder

Id say its more like 95 % sheeted. does this change your opinion? have you run both machines? do you have any opinions on set and genral ease of operation

thanks very ,uch for your help so far its much appreciated

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Komori v Heidelberg -- Part 2

Komori v Heidelberg -- Part 2

Hello n-iprinter,

Yes I have worked both presses, but 95% on the Komori system 20, also 16/32 page Web Offset Presses.

Is this venture into Web Offset new to you ?

Are both presses fitted with a VITS Sheeter ?

Basically both presses are good, the Komori Folder settings are more complicated.

Finally, I suggest you read the many PDFs I have posted on this forum - re Web Offset Printing.

Regards, Alois

 

[n-iprinter]

Hello n-iprinter,

Yes I have worked both presses, but 95% on the Komori system 20, also 16/32 page Web Offset Presses.

Is this venture into Web Offset new to you ?

Are both presses fitted with a VITS Sheeter ?

Basically both presses are good, the Komori Folder settings are more complicated.

Finally, I suggest you read the many PDFs I have posted on this forum - re Web Offset Printing.

Regards, Alois

thanks very much for your help sir. yeas web offset is new to us. both machines have a vits sheeter. what sort of plate up time would you expect on both presses, one poster says it took him around 7 mins to do a full 8 plate change on the web 8, which is quicker thank any manual sheetfed ive ever known, how does this compare to the komori?

thanks again

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Enlightenment

Enlightenment

Hello n-iprinter,

However long it takes to plate-up --- that is the least of your Worries!!!!

Web Offset:

What you should aiming for is, How long it takes to web-up the press/make-ready and have the press
runninig at production speed - producing good saleable copies and keeping the press running --
be aware that you have to rectify any press production problems while the press is - Running!

The decision to stop the press, must not be taken lightly, it could prove costly in down time,
remember there are 100 meters of paper running through a 4 unit press

Also, you need different "Skills" running a Web Offset Press.

Regards, Alois

 

[n-iprinter]

Hello n-iprinter,

However long it takes to plate-up --- that is the least of your Worries!!!!

Web Offset:

What you should aiming for is, How long it takes to web-up the press/make-ready and have the press
runninig at production speed - producing good saleable copies and keeping the press running --
be aware that you have to rectify any press production problems while the press is - Running!

The decision to stop the press, must not be taken lightly, it could prove costly in down time,
remember there are 100 meters of paper running through a 4 unit press

Also, you need different "Skills" running a Web Offset Press.

Regards, Alois

thank you sir. which machine would you go for?

 

[Printmac]

Look either way you go you will need to get somebody who has experience to maximise efficiency,and all I'm saying is that if you already have experience on a heidelberg it will make life a whole lot easier as there will be less to learn in terms of functionalities
This press is manageable with one highly skilled minder and 3 crew members
There will be no need to break the web during a wash and a plate up and web breaks are less likely the thicker the stock
I'm just talking from 1st hand experience on this press and giving my own views,I am in no way putting down Komori...

 

[Cornishpastythighs]

Sheetfed guys moving to webs can sometimes be a long learning curve, these webs move at blazing speeds and while you are just thinking about what the issue could be you have filled up bins with waste. Tension/web break/creasing problems usually cannot be solved while the press is not running, dryer/chiller/folder issues can be brutal. Hopefully your company is willing to invest the time and money in learning. Sheetfeds and webs have very little in common except the rollers/dampening. If it were me I would get something like a Komori Super perfector to do the 95% sheeted work and farm out the 5% web work.

 

[Alois Senefelder]

My answer

My answer

Hello n-iprinter,


Even though Mr. Cornishpastythighs is Marooned on St. Kilda, I agree totally with his comments.



Regards, Alois

 

[n-iprinter]

Thanks everyone for your help. Just to confirm we will be employing 2 Experienced web printers (a number 1 and an assistant) to operate the machine. I will over time learn to operate the machine however as im pressroom/production manager i will not be running it full time.

We looked at perfecting a while ago and the machines we looked at all had marking issues, and as the work we do is high coverage I cant see it working for us.

I think we are leaning toward the Heidelberg at present and hopefully ill keep you posted as to what is going on in the future.

 

[Presselectronucs]

I agree with the two Senior members above. Unless you have long runs and deep pockets, stick with the Super Perfector. They are work horses! Not sure what marking problems you are referring to?

 

[n-iprinter]

I agree with the two Senior members above. Unless you have long runs and deep pockets, stick with the Super Perfector. They are work horses! Not sure what marking problems you are referring to?

Thanks for your input. We do have longruns, and this is the reason we ae looking at web. Regarding deep Pockets, looking around we would need much deeper pockets to by an SP than a Web.

The marking issue im referring to is on the Back side of the sheet once printed.

 

[ondemandbindery]

That would kill the deal right there if you are the Manager and they expect you to run a web. Webs are very complicated as compared to a Sheetfed. Your company will need a "Team" dedicated to having a web. And unfortunately at this stage in the Printing Industry I would hate to be the company who is trying to sort out a new Web Department while your competitors have it figured out. If your company has deep pockets have at it because this could be a situation where if you want to make a million dollars with a Web Press start out with 2 million....

Good luck,
JW

 

[n-iprinter]

That would kill the deal right there if you are the Manager and they expect you to run a web. Webs are very complicated as compared to a Sheetfed. Your company will need a "Team" dedicated to having a web. And unfortunately at this stage in the Printing Industry I would hate to be the company who is trying to sort out a new Web Department while your competitors have it figured out. If your company has deep pockets have at it because this could be a situation where if you want to make a million dollars with a Web Press start out with 2 million....

Good luck,
JW

thanks for your input, it is much appreciated. as i stated earlier i will not operate the machine full time for the reason you suggested and we will be employing experienced web operators to run it

 

[Alois Senefelder]

*****

*****

Hello n - iprinter,

Heidelberg Web 8 and Vits Sheeter

Crucial Decision: Who will be responsible for replacing and setting the Knives on Vits Sheeter ?


Web Press Ancillary Equipment:

1) Fountain Solution Concentrate Doser 2) Central FS Circulator 3) Air Compressor + Refrigeration Air Dryer

4) Water Chiller Unit for the Chill Rollers -- Inflow/Outflow

5) Competent Printing Press Engineer 6) Competent Press Electrician


Regards, Alois

 

[CKP]

Hi All,
even elder web-offset machines can be equipped with our INLINE spectrodensitometer based closed loop color control system, which ensures dramatically reduced make ready times and waste and provides in the meanwhile equal printing quality according any standard's reference (controlling both density and deltaE). Thanks to it's attractive price level the ROI is short.
Feel free to contact me online or offline for more informations.
Cheers,
Peter
Color Key Pro Press room color control system