Konica 6100 / Fiery issue with transparency

[YourCastle]

I guess my point is, why should I have to do this ...

lol, I ask myself that question in all aspects of my life.

still just throwing darts blindly... how about turning on "Optimize RGB Transparency"?

 

[Dov Isaacs]

I did try the MOD file, thanks for sending along. Unfortunately same result. Here is a photo of the print.

Seems like a RIP-specific problem.

 

[RVNG]

I've tested many iterations of PDF presets; working off PDFx-1a & PDFx-4 standards, nothing really works all that well.
Yes, flattening happens under x1a, obviously, but the the resulting CMYK looks flat and lifeless (at least on the Konica). However, because this job was supplied RGB (which the Konica seems to like better) I maintain our PDFs as PDFx-4, and then... the Acroabt Flattener works to best. Nice rich colour, no transparency for the Fiery to trip over. This tool is under the Production Tool set in Acrobat Pro. This is my only workaround, if anyone else a better way or my insight, I would appreciate it.

 

[Dov Isaacs]

The fact that content pre-converted to CMYK looks “flat and lifeless” is indicative that the EFI RIP is not strictly conforming to ICC color management. It apparently is trying to “improve” the color conversion per EFI's own ideas of what is correct. IIRC, there are options on EFI RIPs to disable such “enhancements” (which, FWIW are not in the underlying Adobe PDF Print Engine code upon which EFI RIPs are based, but are EFI additions).

- Dov

 

[YourCastle]

FYI FWIW, the file prints really well on my xerox v280 and default fiery settings.

Might be time for a service call that gets escalated to analyst or engineer so they can track down which settings are faulty?

It's also possible someone on your team changed some kind of setting, probably in "Device Center" without telling you...

some idiot at a previous job I had edited a raw PMS color drastically to 10% of the actual color -- they had a spot color they wanted ghosted on a job and were too lazy to go to the source file. Turned out that spot color was a branded color for one of our largest clients, so when a different teammate printed the job their freaking logo was WRONG on 1000 booklets. We had to re-print for free, but only after it took me hours to figure out someone edited the spot color. It didn't occur to me that someone would change a spot color more than slightly. Very frustrating.

... if you can't find the problem, you might have to have the techs do a re-install?

 

[bill kahny]

I'm sorry this is way over my head but....Wouldn't the fact "The only difference is the image on the right sits on a transparent layer in photoshop, and the Left image is flattened." make them different on purpose? I would think them printing different is correct. If you want them the same create them the same, right?

 

[namelessentity]

How do you print to your fiery? Are you using Hotfolder, or the print driver? Your driver might be overwriting settings. I don't use the driver for anything on our printers.

 

[RVNG]

I'm sorry this is way over my head but....Wouldn't the fact "The only difference is the image on the right sits on a transparent layer in photoshop, and the Left image is flattened." make them different on purpose? I would think them printing different is correct. If you want them the same create them the same, right?

No. The preview in the PDF shows them as identical—colour values, colour space, ICC profiles.. all identical.
Only difference is one image sits on a transparent layer in PShop... don't mistake the word 'transparent' as meaning it's opacity is less than 100 percent, its not. In this case the graphic sits on a 'transparent layer'.
This is a rendering issue as far as I am concerned. My reasoning is every other workflow in our shop processes this art correctly, Fiery does not. Weird... I have discoverd yet another anomaly... I will add to this post

 

[RVNG]

How do you print to your fiery? Are you using Hotfolder, or the print driver? Your driver might be overwriting settings. I don't use the driver for anything on our printers.

We export PDFs from Indesign/Illiustrator using Adobe PDFx-4 presets. Then drag into the Fiery Command Workstation.

 

[RVNG]

OK, more weirdness on a completely different job ...
Fiery processing colour differently if 1up or if using the built-in imposition for 2up. See photographs.
At this point there is something fundamentally wrong, we will seek out support from Konica.

In the meantime enjoy this head-scratcher...

 

[YourCastle]

The preview in the PDF shows them as identical

in acrobat, are you viewing with "Output Preview" on? That is part of my preflight as it can help highlight issues. Sometimes I'll toggle it on-off quickly to help find issues

 

[RVNG]

The fact that content pre-converted to CMYK looks “flat and lifeless” is indicative that the EFI RIP is not strictly conforming to ICC color management. It apparently is trying to “improve” the color conversion per EFI's own ideas of what is correct. IIRC, there are options on EFI RIPs to disable such “enhancements” (which, FWIW are not in the underlying Adobe PDF Print Engine code upon which EFI RIPs are based, but are EFI additions).

- Dov

Thanks Dov. I would love the learn where these 'enhancements' are. As I mentioned we will get Konica involved here to help us with a solution. thanks for your attention.

 

[RVNG]

lol, I ask myself that question in all aspects of my life.

still just throwing darts blindly... how about turning on "Optimize RGB Transparency"?

Thanks YourCastle, did this too.
I was sent a PDF file with recommended settings for the Fiery. I now have adjusted our defaults to match them. Yes, this was one of the recommendations

 

[YourCastle]

Fiery processing colour differently if 1up or if using the built-in imposition for 2up

i don't think imposition has color settings, so I'm guessing you're using hot folders which has a setting that is wonky?

How about this, select two jobs, one that you know works and one that doesn't to compare settings. If they have different settings, the setting will be blank. That might be the setting that's throwing things off?

 

[RVNG]

i don't think imposition has color settings, so I'm guessing you're using hot folders which has a setting that is wonky?

How about this, select two jobs, one that you know works and one that doesn't to compare settings. If they have different settings, the setting will be blank. That might be the setting that's throwing things off?

If by 'hotfolder' you mean dragging production PDFs into the job list area of the Command Workstation interface, then yes we use hotfolders.

You're right, the imposition does not have its own colour settings. After imposing, it simply makes another instance of the job in the job list, but with '.dbp' extension on the end. To which you choose your print properties: trays, qty's, finishing, etc.

I re-ran a previously successful job using the new defaults remcommended and it remains correct.
But this 'good job' may simply mean it has no transparency, or at least a situation where transparency issues aren't visually apparent.
The original Froot Loops job posted here was a good example because the two red areas touched each other. If not, the operator may have never known.

 

[thumbtack]

I'll throw my results in for whatever comparative value they may have.
Same results on both 6100 and 7100.
Print engine on - no difference, Print engine off - difference.
Pretty much the same as you experienced, but the interesting thing about my prints is that the right side printed darker.
2nd round I matched my color settings to the ghent settings posted, (but without print engine on) both sides printed so close to the darker image, that I may not have even noticed a difference if I weren't specifically looking for it. (same settings but with PE on - matches)

Also, I have had Fiery imposed files have different variations of a single page, which I'm pretty sure I resolved by removing the transparency. (it's been a while since I ran into that one)

 

[Rodi]

I run a 6100 my self. I have had the blue color diff (was reds, but ya get my drift). In Properties under IMAGE try "BYPass" instead of GRACOL.

My mom had a 1968 Alfa Romeo Spider, and much like the 6100, was beautiful when it ran.