N-Color Soft Proofing and Profiling

[seedpress]

We are trying to acquire free-open-source or reasonably priced software for creating an N-Color ICC profile and then gamut mapping our art to that N Color space for soft proofing.

We are NOT enquiring about CMYK+N, but about a full N-Color set—with 6 to 12 colors.

Here's all I've figured out so far, please correct me if I'm wrong:
Argyll can be used to create targets for N-Colors, and also to create a profile from those scanned targets.

As the first step in creating the profile, wouldn't it be necessary to define the “primary” N-Colors by printing and scanning each one?

Photoshop can't soft proof N-Colors, but there are numerous R.I.P.'s that can. Unfortunately, they are all far too expensive for our current project.

The cheapest (but still expensive) soft proofing solution we've found would be to create ColorCast profiles in ColorThink Pro and then proof in some third-party compatible software. Has anyone here used ColorCast profiles for softproofing N-Color?

Any suggestions?

 

[Correct Color]

I'm not sure how you define "reasonably priced"...

I'm also not entirely sure what you mean by "gamut mapping" your art. Soft proofing is simply soft proofing. There's no "gamut mapping" involved in the process.

I'll also admit that frankly, I get a little offended by people who are looking for "free" solutions from people who have invested a good deal of time and money in knowledge, and have to make a living themselves.

But I did get curious because I haven't looked at Argyll for awhile, and last time I did, it was not capable of making CMYK+ profiles.

Apparently now, it is, at least I get that impression from the command-line descriptions on the targen page.

My experience with Argyll -- honestly -- though is that it's a very steep learning curve for what in the end aren't really all that spectacular profiles. But, in answer to your question, with Argyll or any other profile-making software, it is not necessary to read and define your primaries, CMYK or otherwise. All you have to do is give them slots. Reading them is part of the profiling process.

Actually, most RIP's don't soft proof at all. Onyx is an exception, but in any case, you'd have to build a whole media in the RIP. But then, you have to have a RIP to create a CMYK+ printing condition to being with, you can't just print from Photoshop.

I've never bought the ColorCast module -- since there actually is a way to soft proof CMYK+ profiles in Photoshop -- simply view the image in "convert to profile" through that profile -- and also in my trusty old copy of Monaco Gamutworks, but what you're describing is exactly what they claim it's made for, so I assume it would work.



Mike Adams
Correct Color

 

[seedpress]

Our goal is to be able to display on a calibrated monitor what our prints will look like when printed (as best as possible), and then tweak the original design, as necessary—soft proofing. To do so we have to acquire a printer profile. I presume that the gamut mapping will be in built into the profile and be executed when conversion is applied. Anyway, without gamut mapping there is no softproofing.

The printer manufacturer won't supply a device profile, and it does not use process (CMYK) colors; so we are stuck with the task of creating a profile ourselves.

As to Argyll, I think a mistake was made when I assumed just because Argyll could generate N-Color targets that it could then also be used to create N-Color profiles. All I have found within the Argyll command line utilities for creating printer profiles is “colprof.”

From its documentation:

“Create an RGB, CMY or CMYK ICC profile from the .ti3 test chart patch values.
Note that currently, Monochrome and N-Color profiles are not supported.”

Interesting to read your comment that you haven't found Argyll's profiles to be that good, because in many forums people seem to prefer Argyll's over X-Rite's. There are other profilers, of course.

Monaco Systems was acquired by X-Rite well over a decade ago, and GamutWorks has since become orphan software, and is not even supported by X-Rite.

I think ProfilMaker 5 with a SpectroScan would work, but again we have orphan software, and the problem of buying old, used equipment that X-Rite doesn't service. Not to mention buying a dongle.

I'm not looking for "'free' solutions from people who have invested a good deal of time and money in knowledge, and have to make a living themselves.” Most people who use and/or contribute to the FOSS (Free Open-Source Software) communities are working hard and also have to make a living; debating the merits of FOSS (or FLOSS) would seem to be a tangent here. (And I'm certainly not looking for pirated versions, if perhaps that's what you inferred.)

In this case, my efforts to obtain a profile are primarily a quid pro quo exchange of services, although if successful I could certainly use the profile myself. At this point I've concluded that crafting such N-Color profiles from scratch, especially the gamut mapping tables and/or algorithms, is beyond my expertise and time budget.

I'm pretty sure Onyx is well out of my “friend's” budget. Caldera provides proofing and profiling, but again is too pricey. So I will probably recommend that my friend contract-out the profile creation. Chromix has a “valet” profiling service, but they’ve already told me the can't do N-Color. So, if anyone can recommend a profiling service that can handle N-Color, it would be helpful.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

If it is just about softproofing, do you really need an N-Colour profile? Is the source artwork previously separated into N-channels, or is it just RGB?

When one profiles an inkjet, it may contain various inks, beyond just CMYK. However an RGB or CMYK profile is generated, which describes all of the inks used. This of course comes down to the actual target and the printer, is it possible to control the printer to produce a value that contains only the green head, or the orange + N% of yellow etc. Many RIP manufacturers license an SDK from the printer OEM so that they can directly control the output of the printer when creating such charts.



Stephen Marsh

 

[seedpress]

Our artwork exists in an RGB Linear Workspace. It can be exported in a variety of color spaces, file formats, bit depths, etc. Typically sRGB. In any scenario, the printer in question has a dramatically smaller color space. The N channels have yet to be defined by us, but can be. None will be CMY. There is no way to soft proof without a profile.

The printer's RIP software is proprietary and not for sale without the printer. We are not buying a printer: system costs 6+ figures. We are simply using a fabricator that owns the system. Currently we have to hard proof from sample prints. It's a pain!

 

[gordo]

I'm confused. I'm not sure I understand what you're doing.
You have an RGB image ("Our artwork exists in an RGB Linear Workspace." "Typically sRGB") that you want to convert into a multi-channel image that only consists of spot colors ("NOT enquiring about CMYK+N, but about a full N-Color set"). Is that correct?
Your printer does not use CMYK colorants ("it does not use process (CMYK) colors;"). Is that correct? If so what colorants does it use?
Could you post an example of the image file you're working with?

 

[seedpress]

To reiterate, the printer in question is not able to print process (CMYK) colors. But it is capable of utilizing a halftone process to simulate a wide range of colors, which unfortunately falls only within a very limited gamut compared to sRGB.

The printer utilizes 6 basic spot colors: red, green, blue, yellow, white, and black. The red is more of a dull, brick red. The company has a newer series of printers that also includes orange. They can also premix inks to match a range of custom colors. Our artwork needs to utilize the halftone approach.

The ink is composed of inorganic (light fast) pigments mixed with glass frit (finely ground glass powder and flux) and other ingredients, which is printed onto glass sheets with an inkjet printer. The ink is fired in a tempering furnace, which melts the pigment-frit mixture and fuses it to the glass. This is called “in-glass” printing. Here's a link to the manufacturer's web site:
http://www.dip-tech.com

Two other companies, Durst and Tecglass, are now competing with Dip-Tech in this arena. None have yet achieved true process color printing:
http://tecglassdigital.com/
http://www.durst.it/en/index.php/industrial_printing/product_glass/rho-vetrocer-250

You asked for a link to our artwork. They are just sRGB raster files—we have hundreds—and seeing one won't clarify any understanding of our problem, but here is one anyway:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/30ys2fs206xtfhi/InsideTheFlame_One-380PPI-EsRGB-NoAlpha.tif?dl=0

 

[pauly92]

Why couldn't you have said that from the beginning. It usually helps when you give all the information on what you're doing with what printers.
The colour gamut is so small with those ceramic printers. I've had tons of samples come to my office. I've been looking to get one, but not until a good colour gamut can be achieved. printing with red green blue yellow and black isn't the best options.

What you want to do will cost you money.. obviously. Get the profile they use from their RIP. simply ask for it.
Then you need a program that will device link to get the profile into a cmyk or rgb format for photoshop or what ever program you're using.

 

[seedpress]

You advised: “Get the profile they use from their RIP. Simply ask for it.”
As I said in my first reply: “The printer manufacturer won't supply a device profile.”

Actually, Dip-Tech claims they CAN'T, but that they are working on a softproofing solution for clients of the fabricators that Dip-Tech serves. We'll see…

As to the other two “in-glass” printers, Durst answers neither emails nor phone calls. Tecglass is in the process of giving me a reply, but I'm having to jump through a bunch of hoops. Very annoying!

You remarked: “Why couldn't you have said that from the beginning. It usually helps when you give all the information on what you're doing with what printers.”

Sorry! I was trying to make my question as generic as possible. There are other print technologies that also use N-Color printing, for example, the packaging sector of printing.

Each of the three in-glass print manufacturers use a different set of pigments. Also, those printers that use ceramic inks for printing on ceramic substrates use a variety of other sets. Not to mention those that fire enamel on metal. I'm sure there are others I've missed, but in any case we are considering a variety of options for our prints.

It's surprising how many firms who offer print services are reluctant to provide ICC profiles, or even admit that the customer might want to soft proof. I recently contacted a premier C-Print shop and was made to feel like an idiot just for mentioning that I wanted to soft proof. Needless to say, I won't be using their services.

“printing with red green blue yellow and black isn't the best options.”
I would agree, but the in-glass prints may have an archival appeal. If one works creatively, within the limitations of the pigments, then very impressive results can be achieved, for example:
https://dip-tech.com/pt/printed-glass-projects-pt/chile-santiago-santiago-airport

 

[Correct Color]

I presume that the gamut mapping will be in built into the profile and be executed when conversion is applied. Anyway, without gamut mapping there is no softproofing.

If you insist. Its just that no one ever calls it that. It's just referred to as soft proofing, because no change is actually made.

Interesting to read your comment that you haven't found Argyll's profiles to be that good, because in many forums people seem to prefer Argyll's over X-Rite's.

Yeah, I'm aware. But I'd put my research up against any of theirs. I think there's kind of a cadre of people out there who are so awe-struck by Graeme Gill --and the idea of free! -- that they just automatically assume anything he created -- free! -- has to be better than anything else. But many years ago, I wanted to try and create stock profiles, got extremely pissed at X-Rite when I called them to ask how much licensing would be and they told me ten grand per freaking quarter.

So I tried, real, real, real hard to get Argyll to beat Monaco. It just didn't happen. For a variety of limitations, mainly in black generation, and the way it -- Argyll --makes perceptual rendering intent.

There are other profilers, of course.

Yeah, I know. At one point several years ago, I counted 27. And over the years I've probably tested pretty extensively about half of them.

To this day, I still rate Monaco as the best of them. In fact, it's the basic engine X-Rite uses in i1 Profiler -- which is the profile-making engine used in Caldera, btw. Of course, X-Rite doesn't really like to say that, but you can use the two pretty much interchangeably as far as the resultant profiles go, and that's not true with any other profile-making engines.

I think ProfilMaker 5 with a SpectroScan would work, but again we have orphan software, and the problem of buying old, used equipment that X-Rite doesn't service.

Actually, no, it wouldn't. I know because I've had some experience profiling ceramic printing workflows.

And what's interesting is that from what you've said, I'm betting the printer you're talking to won't give you a profile because they don't have one.

Given the inkset you described, it may not even be possible to make one. But if so, there's only one way to do it. Only one engine will even remotely have a chance of working -- not Monaco or i1P. And that's because all the others have limitations of what they'll accept as their CYM primaries, which you have to call your red, green or blue, and yellow, regardless of what L*a*b* value the individual pigments actually are.

And here's the deal: This gets to the point where I've spent years and years working on this stuff. My guess is I could help you, and I could help the printer as well.

And you can say open source this, or FOSS this or FLOSS that.

But I'm guessing someone here is attempting to make a product they're going to sell for money.

Well, my knowledge is my product, and I won't give it away for free on the internet any more than I'd ask you to do the same.

(Edited to add:

Chromix has a “valet” profiling service, but they’ve already told me the can't do N-Color. So, if anyone can recommend a profiling service that can handle N-Color, it would be helpful.

I did miss this. There isn't a profiling service that can remotely do N-Color. In fact, even remotely doing CMYK gets pretty dicey, because all the print process controls have to be made by the profiler in the RIP, and they determine the quality of the profile. But in particular, this process, there aren't a whole lot of people in the world who even understand how to do it, let alone will remotely generate you a profile for a hundred bucks, or even a few hundred bucks.

I can do this if it can be done. Or I can definitely do it if the printer wants to make modifications if necessary. But it requires a site visit. I'd guess two days. If you or they are interested, drop me a line.)





Mike Adams
Correct Color

 

[gordo]

And what's interesting is that from what you've said, I'm betting the printer you're talking to won't give you a profile because they don't have one.

Given the inkset you described, it may not even be possible to make one. But if so, there's only one way to do it. Only one engine will even remotely have a chance of working -- not Monaco or i1P. And that's because all the others have limitations of what they'll accept as their CYM primaries, which you have to call your red, green or blue, and yellow, regardless of what L*a*b* value the individual pigments actually are.

And here's the deal: This gets to the point where I've spent years and years working on this stuff. My guess is I could help you, and I could help the printer as well.

And you can say open source this, or FOSS this or FLOSS that.

But I'm guessing someone here is attempting to make a product they're going to sell for money.

Well, my knowledge is my product, and I won't give it away for free on the internet any more than I'd ask you to do the same.


Mike Adams
Correct Color

My compliments on your post - offered gratis rather than free. ;-)

 

[Correct Color]

Why, thank you, sir.

 

[seedpress]

If you insist. Its just that no one ever calls it that. It's just referred to as soft proofing, because no change is actually made.

Please indulge me here: I'm confused by your reply. Presuming the following definition is correct:
“Soft proofing is the ability to view a simulation of how your image will look when output to the printer on your monitor, based on the chosen profile.” Then are you saying that no gamut mapping is involved if I start with an sRGB image and want to see on my monitor what the image would look like when printed in a printer's gamut that is smaller than sRGB?

So I tried, real, real, real hard to get Argyll to beat Monaco. It just didn't happen. For a variety of limitations, mainly in black generation, and the way it -- Argyll --makes perceptual rendering intent.

Very interesting to read about your experience and insight. Thanks.

what's interesting is that from what you've said, I'm betting the printer you're talking to won't give you a profile because they don't have one.

I'm inclined to agree with you. One interesting thing is this quote from Dip-Tech's software page: "Perfect Results--DXP 3 provides an on-screen preview of graphic files for predictable printed glass results."

But I'm guessing someone here is attempting to make a product they're going to sell for money.

In my case I just want to print my artwork, and get the best appearance as possible on the glass. At this point I would have trouble even giving away my art. The people I'm advising, however, are trying to provide a commercial fulfillment service to artists. It's an uphill battle because they can't see what the prints will look like ahead of time. Hard proofs are expensive.

I can do this if it can be done. Or I can definitely do it if the printer wants to make modifications if necessary. But it requires a site visit. I'd guess two days. If you or they are interested, drop me a line.)

I acknowledge your expertise. I checked out your "Correct Color" site, and am going to forward your information to my "fulfillment" friends. I'm sure they will be interested. For my sake, I hope they bite. As to their budget, I'm not in a position to comment.

Thanks so much for all your input.

 

[pauly92]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]

[/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]I would agree, but the in-glass prints may have an archival appeal. If one works creatively, within the limitations of the pigments, then very impressive results can be achieved, for example:[/FONT]
https://dip-tech.com/pt/printed-glass-projects-pt/chile-santiago-santiago-airport[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]

[/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]I do enough glass printing. We've done some nice high end projects. And a lot of normal glass printing. Ceramic inks will never achieve what i can achieve colour wise unfortunately.[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Theres a photo on this page of our last large job. Although it's not colour print, it's still glass.[/FONT]
https://www.completegraphics.com.au/commercial-printing
https://www.completegraphics.com.au/gallary
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Unfortunately, because of conflict of interest to a lot of out clients, 80% of jobs we do we're not allowed to show. [/FONT]

 

[Correct Color]

Please indulge me here: I'm confused by your reply. Presuming the following definition is correct:
“Soft proofing is the ability to view a simulation of how your image will look when output to the printer on your monitor, based on the chosen profile.” Then are you saying that no gamut mapping is involved if I start with an sRGB image and want to see on my monitor what the image would look like when printed in a printer's gamut that is smaller than sRGB?

I'm saying I guess you could technically call it that, but no one ever does.

Typically gamut-mapping is thought of -- at least by me -- as occurring when an actual conversion is made from one profile to another. Soft proofing is a specific term with a specific meaning that I tend to think of as standing on its own.

(Edited to add:

The people I'm advising, however, are trying to provide a commercial fulfillment service to artists.

Y'know, I have a lot of clients who do a lot of very unusual things with traditional UV printers, of the type Pauly uses. And Pauly here does have quite a bit of experience printing high-end images on glass.

I am kind of curious now just why artists would need this particular process. I can see its commercial applications but I do think there might be a way to achieve the goals of the guys you're talking to with a more traditional approach.

That would likely be something I could help them explore as well.)


Mike

 

[seedpress]

I am kind of curious now just why artists would need this particular process. I can see its commercial applications but I do think there might be a way to achieve the goals of the guys you're talking to with a more traditional approach.

That's a really good question. The UV glass prints look much better than the in-glass ones. On the other hand, Dip-Tech's and the other in-glass prints will hold up under outdoor conditions much better. The pigments are light fast--relatively speaking. That's why they are used on the outsides of buildings.

I was interested in the archival quality this durability enables. As to my friends, the fulfillment folks, they have also talked about offering UV glass prints, but for various reason they are currently focused on the in-glass stuff. In-glass prints also have an advantage wherever moisture is likely a concern. Also the glass is tempered during the frit/pigment firing, so it becomes safety glass and then also becomes about four times stronger than regular glass.

Pauly: Nice stuff at your site. Wish you were here in the U.S., but I shouldn't wish that on anybody these days.

 

[pauly92]

That's a really good question. The UV glass prints look much better than the in-glass ones. On the other hand, Dip-Tech's and the other in-glass prints will hold up under outdoor conditions much better. The pigments are light fast--relatively speaking. That's why they are used on the outsides of buildings.

I was interested in the archival quality this durability enables. As to my friends, the fulfillment folks, they have also talked about offering UV glass prints, but for various reason they are currently focused on the in-glass stuff. In-glass prints also have an advantage wherever moisture is likely a concern. Also the glass is tempered during the frit/pigment firing, so it becomes safety glass and then also becomes about four times stronger than regular glass.

Pauly: Nice stuff at your site. Wish you were here in the U.S., but I shouldn't wish that on anybody these days.

Thanks,
But yes, colour pigments in UV ink can fade over time. I'm not sure how long the ceramic will last but i believe longer.
We have no moisture issues, We only use laminated glass outdoors for large structures and it's always toughened glass. Rarely use non toughened for anything. But our laminated glass has been tested for various conditions and didn't come back with any issues.

We do supply Australia wide, i have had talks supplying to the US but the cost is so expensive. It would be cheaper to buy a building and set up another shop there..

 

[Andy_warp]

This may sound really dumb...could you just create seperations in photoshop with color ranges...and recomposite?
...or what about converting to an indexed color space with your color set used to crunch the gamut down?

 

[Doctor_Blade]

This may sound really dumb...could you just create seperations in photoshop with color ranges...and recomposite?
...or what about converting to an indexed color space with your color set used to crunch the gamut down?

I would prefer to find the solution parallel to this idea. You only need a soft-proof so I would suggest to find any software that can display n-channels and just manually tweak each channel's display color.