Pay Per Click vs Pay Per Visit

Ynot_UK

Well-known member
OK, I guess that’s so you can perfect bind inline. But you’re doing 4 times the clicks you would if you printed on 12x18.
Have you costed out printing 4 up, guillotining and offline PB?
I wouldn’t want to print 6x9 on clicks. We print loads of A5 booklets, always 4up on A3 or SRA3 if full bleed finish. Wouldn’t dream of printing on A5 sheets.
 

Shredder

Well-known member
We don't have a press operator. We just print and pickup books. Not being in the printing industry we didn't want a full time employee running print jobs. Ive been considering getting into print business and hiring a full time operator but have no idea how to sell print jobs.
 

Ynot_UK

Well-known member
As print isn’t your main business, you may be better off overall financially and in terms of freeing up time, by building a relationship with a local digital printer, who could produce your books the most efficient way and would likely buy substrates and clicks at a better rate than you are able to.
 

Shredder

Well-known member
Tried that years ago. We needed printing in my office for packaging materials/catalogs/etc. Used these machines can go very cheap. Plus running I run a not for profit educational institute on the side that needs lots of printed materials. But my needs are not like printers who print 100k/mo with various jobs. Technically printing 400 gsm in house will save 6-7 figures annually.
 

AP90

Well-known member
What size stock are you printing these books on?
I’m struggling with 100k clicks to make 200 books
Somethings off them. I figured it out right off the top of my head and you should be running this on 13x19. You could do the 200 books on just over 11k sheets.
 

Shredder

Well-known member
Maybe I need to get away from perfect binder finisher. It saved us manually labor esp on small books which I think would have been a nightmare.

I also print 8.5x11" full color books (500 pages each)
 
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msaeger

Well-known member
Maybe I need to get away from perfect binder finisher. It saved us manually labor esp on small books which I think would have been a nightmare.

I also print 8.5x11" full color books (500 pages each)

You can get automated offline perfect binders. I don't service them but what I see is people will keep those offline finishing devices way longer than the in line ones. Maybe with a offline one you could switch to self service of the printer.
 

Shredder

Well-known member
You can get automated offline perfect binders. I don't service them but what I see is people will keep those offline finishing devices way longer than the in line ones. Maybe with a offline one you could switch to self service of the printer.

Exactly what I'm thinking. 5 years ago offline perfect binders were running $10k+ on used market. I bought a crappy chinese one off ebay for $3k which didnt work. Now chinese knock offs look like they have gotten better:
fastbind knockoff $500
fastbind $5000

just got off the phone with my assistant (he used one of these 30 years ago). He is reviewing it and we are considering manually making 1000 big books over a few days. We plan to use the minolta perfect binder for our booklets (mini books - we found too many young adults suffer from ADD and made booklets that were simpler to read and finish). Still leaning on avoiding a PPC service contract.
 

AP90

Well-known member
Exactly what I'm thinking. 5 years ago offline perfect binders were running $10k+ on used market. I bought a crappy chinese one off ebay for $3k which didnt work. Now chinese knock offs look like they have gotten better:
fastbind knockoff $500
fastbind $5000

just got off the phone with my assistant (he used one of these 30 years ago). He is reviewing it and we are considering manually making 1000 big books over a few days. We plan to use the minolta perfect binder for our booklets (mini books - we found too many young adults suffer from ADD and made booklets that were simpler to read and finish). Still leaning on avoiding a PPC service contract.
If your printing these in line on 6x9 sheets and finishing in line, I’d like to know what your actual cost per book is. Because I’m betting me and a lot of others on here could beat the price by printing 4 up and finishing off line. My guess is just your clicks and paper run you around $4.75/book?
 

Shredder

Well-known member
If your printing these in line on 6x9 sheets and finishing in line, I’d like to know what your actual cost per book is. Because I’m betting me and a lot of others on here could beat the price by printing 4 up and finishing off line. My guess is just your clicks and paper run you around $4.75/book?
Yes last I checked $4.35 a couple years ago. Probably $4.75/ea now with PPC annual increases
 

Ynot_UK

Well-known member
Technically printing 400 gsm in house will save 6-7 figures annually.
Someone's got to ask, so I'll be that guy :confused:...
@Shredder can you quantify your above statement in numbers? Start with the totals for color clicks and B/W clicks per annum, across all your activities and all your machines? Does the 6-7 figures potential saving you mention include the cents?
 

Shredder

Well-known member
Someone's got to ask, so I'll be that guy :confused:...
@Shredder can you quantify your above statement in numbers? Start with the totals for color clicks and B/W clicks per annum, across all your activities and all your machines? Does the 6-7 figures potential saving you mention include the cents?

You are correct, I misspoke. We spent low 6 figures annually on printing we were contracting out (pre-covid). We have to buy in 25-50k lots to get price breaks so we ended up throwing away excess printed materials. Over the years we saved many hundreds of thousands dollars worth I just recycled so it feels even more. Moving to an in house solution we pay about the same per unit (materials + PPC + labor cutting) but now we can print on demand and change artwork as needed. Sometimes one change would make materials unusable which was too common. Also customers would want to change color schemes and we would need to comply. Plus lead times would be 5-8 weeks which will be non existent now. If i can find a way to automate my die cuts pricing will be even less.
 

AP90

Well-known member
You are correct, I misspoke. We spent low 6 figures annually on printing we were contracting out (pre-covid). We have to buy in 25-50k lots to get price breaks so we ended up throwing away excess printed materials. Over the years we saved many hundreds of thousands dollars worth I just recycled so it feels even more. Moving to an in house solution we pay about the same per unit (materials + PPC + labor cutting) but now we can print on demand and change artwork as needed. Sometimes one change would make materials unusable which was too common. Also customers would want to change color schemes and we would need to comply. Plus lead times would be 5-8 weeks which will be non existent now. If i can find a way to automate my die cuts pricing will be even less.
I guess my thinking is if your doing that much work outsourcing and your spending that much money, your probably not getting a very good deal on your printing prices. Are they a trade printer? And buying in 25-50k lots seems counterproductive to printing digitally. Unless variable, no digital printer is going to run that effectively. Which means you couldnt if you acquired a digital press. Also, idk of any job that Ive had a 5-8 week lead time on. Our largest job we ever ran was maybe a 3 week lead time.

I guess things just aren't making much sense with what you are saying. I thought you already had a print shop, but then you say its a side gig and non profit, but then your outsourcing over 100k/year printing. Basically im confused on what you currently do and what you are wanting to do.

Also, on those perfect bound books, if your @ $4.75 with just paper and clicks, we'd probably beat that price any day by running 4 up and finishing offline.
 

Shredder

Well-known member
Prices were very cheap in our industry. They were done on printing presses not digital due to super thick 450 gsm stock. The reason I bought the C6100 is so I can print 400 gsm, if C6100 can handle it I may push it to 450 gsm. I do know Minoltas underrate their machines years ago.

I have a business that needs 400-450gsm packaging materials and my not for profit is something I do in my free time. I'm a wannabe printer
 

Ynot_UK

Well-known member
@Shredder, this topic seems to be going around in circles, so I'll summarise my thoughts on what I would do, if in your position.
  • Optimise equipment to demand
    • source a controller for your new C6100 to get it up and running
    • once the C6100 is bedded in, get rid of the C6000 - it's ten years old now and you'll struggle to get a vendor to take it on or continue with it at a decent PPC
    • if your B/W volumes justify it - as you have the space - also get a B/W refurb (we recently did just that and now have a Pro951 for B/W, after research and advice gained on this forum) You'll get much lower PPC running B/W on a B/W machine than B/W on a color press.
  • Negotiate the best PPC over a five year term with a reputable vendor
    • be wary of any small print ('may increase by up to 5% per annum' makes a 3.0 cent click into a 3.8 cent click at year 5)
  • Build a relationship with the vendor and respect the fact they're in business to make money too.
    • don't sweat the small stuff as you'll risk becoming a busy fool. PPC is your friend - that's why most businesses use it.
    • taking your concern in post #15 that 7m color clicks may cost you $200k - turn this around and provided you're satisfied 0.0285 is a good average click charge over a five year term, instead think of how much money you will make by printing 7m color clicks. All parties are then happy.
  • Finish off line to maximise PPC value
    • on a commercial press, your PPC is likely to be the same whether you're printing 13x19, 12x18 or 6x9 (forgive me if my size terminology is wrong, as I'm in the UK and used to ISO sizes) In English that's SRA3, A3 and A5.
    • printing on 6x9 and paying four times more clicks than you need, just so you can finish in-line is plain wrong on all levels.
    • off line finishing equipment, if looked after, will outlive your press engines three or four times over.
  • Look at every job individually, to see if doing it in-house is commercially the best option
    • Just because you 'can' run a job in-house, the quantity may enable you to sub it out to litho for the same or less than what it would cost you... saving you time and money
    • The above applies particularly to packaging materials, which I imagine involves die cutting and high volumes of the same sorts.
  • Ensure your packaging customers understand your quantity breaks and stock holding. In post #32 you speak of throwing inventory into recycling as "customers want to change color schemes" & you "need to comply".
    • If you are holding stock for your customers, that's fine. In an ideal world it would be paid for and on their inventory whilst on your shelf, although in practice you will often hold the stock at cost and realise the profit as the stock is drawn down with each assembly/delivery.
    • However you and your customers must understand how much existing stock you're holding, so that in the event of a pack/design change, your customer can make a commercial decision to either exhaust your current volumes or pay for you to throw existing stock into recycling.
    • If you don't get this aspect right and your customers simply get a pack/design change on demand, this will become commercial suicide
  • Finally, whilst balancing all your diverse activities, make sure you're making enough money and leaving enough free time for beer, women, football, holidays (post-Covid) and/or whatever else floats your boat.
 

Shredder

Well-known member
@Shredder, this topic seems to be going around in circles, so I'll summarise my thoughts on what I would do, if in your position.
  • Optimise equipment to demand
    • source a controller for your new C6100 to get it up and running
    • once the C6100 is bedded in, get rid of the C6000 - it's ten years old now and you'll struggle to get a vendor to take it on or continue with it at a decent PPC
    • if your B/W volumes justify it - as you have the space - also get a B/W refurb (we recently did just that and now have a Pro951 for B/W, after research and advice gained on this forum) You'll get much lower PPC running B/W on a B/W machine than B/W on a color press.
  • Negotiate the best PPC over a five year term with a reputable vendor
    • be wary of any small print ('may increase by up to 5% per annum' makes a 3.0 cent click into a 3.8 cent click at year 5)
  • Build a relationship with the vendor and respect the fact they're in business to make money too.
    • don't sweat the small stuff as you'll risk becoming a busy fool. PPC is your friend - that's why most businesses use it.
    • taking your concern in post #15 that 7m color clicks may cost you $200k - turn this around and provided you're satisfied 0.0285 is a good average click charge over a five year term, instead think of how much money you will make by printing 7m color clicks. All parties are then happy.
  • Finish off line to maximise PPC value
    • on a commercial press, your PPC is likely to be the same whether you're printing 13x19, 12x18 or 6x9 (forgive me if my size terminology is wrong, as I'm in the UK and used to ISO sizes) In English that's SRA3, A3 and A5.
    • printing on 6x9 and paying four times more clicks than you need, just so you can finish in-line is plain wrong on all levels.
    • off line finishing equipment, if looked after, will outlive your press engines three or four times over.
  • Look at every job individually, to see if doing it in-house is commercially the best option
    • Just because you 'can' run a job in-house, the quantity may enable you to sub it out to litho for the same or less than what it would cost you... saving you time and money
    • The above applies particularly to packaging materials, which I imagine involves die cutting and high volumes of the same sorts.
  • Ensure your packaging customers understand your quantity breaks and stock holding. In post #32 you speak of throwing inventory into recycling as "customers want to change color schemes" & you "need to comply".
    • If you are holding stock for your customers, that's fine. In an ideal world it would be paid for and on their inventory whilst on your shelf, although in practice you will often hold the stock at cost and realise the profit as the stock is drawn down with each assembly/delivery.
    • However you and your customers must understand how much existing stock you're holding, so that in the event of a pack/design change, your customer can make a commercial decision to either exhaust your current volumes or pay for you to throw existing stock into recycling.
    • If you don't get this aspect right and your customers simply get a pack/design change on demand, this will become commercial suicide
  • Finally, whilst balancing all your diverse activities, make sure you're making enough money and leaving enough free time for beer, women, football, holidays (post-Covid) and/or whatever else floats your boat.

Thanks for the advice. Working on all these steps. Is your 0.0285 color figure in dollars or pounds?

When looking up bw machines I came across something called a RISO. How do they compare to a konica minolta? They claim super super cheap PPC rates like 25% of a km.

We do make small 6x9 books ~30 pages. It has become a more prevalent thing for us as too many people suffering from ADD and not able to finish a novel. The covers have color but inside bw. I feel that is cheaper running inline as opposed to offline especially since we run those in many thousands ($0.30/book). Labor in chicago has gotten expensive $15/hr.

I forgot to mention that the reason I started thinking of getting rid of PPC was because of how difficult it is to work with my local dealer we have used 20+ years. They have been very unresponsive, repairs were taking 6+ months and their salesmen not very friendly/helpful. I found another local shop who are meeting with me next week that was recommended by service technician who said they give better rates. I believe we are the only company with a perfect binder in chicago currently using it and pay monthly just to have it.
 
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Ynot_UK

Well-known member
the reason I started thinking of getting rid of PPC was because of how difficult it is to work with my local dealer we have used 20+ years.
If your regular garage start giving you the run-around, will you sell your truck and look to a bike? Probably not.

Time to find a new vendor. You had a golden opportunity to do this before going alone and sourcing that C6100.
Your chosen vendor would have sold you a refurb color press for more than the one you found one on Craigslist or wherever.
However, it would be complete with controller, the vendor would have the machine at their workshop and replace/service whatever they needed to in order to bring it up to a standard that they were happy to put it on contract, before delivering and commissioning it.

The difficulty I expect you'll find going forward is, being offered an inflated PPC rate, to underwrite the unknown risk for a vendor in taking on the machine 'as is'. Or you may be offered a more reasonable PPC subject to inspection and spending several thousand dollars as a one-off, to bring the machine to a standard. If you're offered the latter, bite their hand off for it. Or better still, resell it on Craigslist for what you paid or thereabouts and then do what I've suggested above.
 

Shredder

Well-known member
I got rid of my Mercedes as it cost more in service then it did to buy it. Went and bought a Toyota Land Cruiser and very happy now even though its nowhere near the luxury of a benz but have spent next to nothing servicing it over 150k miles. It doesn't drive like a benz but it is super dependable. Same thing I look for in a printer/industrial machines. Bullet proof reliability. OT: 20 years ago I had 2 V12 BMWs, one would be parked at dealer for service, the other I would drive. When one gave problems, I would drop one of and pick the other one up. I had an official parking spot at a prestigious bmw dealership dedicated to me.

My C6100 is brand new with 100 copies. They quoted me $75k more for same setup. I have spent inspections before and have had bizhub C652s brought to spec in the past. Its not the issue of getting that done, its how when I needed help on my perfect binder after spending 10s of thousands they took 6 months to find a solution after calling/emailing kmbs branch manager & service manager weekly. I literally had to stop payment to get anything resolved. With that kind of aggravation whats the use of a PPC contract? It would have cost me less not to have it, the only reason I did it is for peace of mind. Even when they came to fix the perfect binder the service man/manager was not willing to change out glue tanks that they borrowed from me to keep me going for 6 months. I cussed everyone out soo badly for not properly honoring the PPC contract. It was such a horrible experience that it left me with a bad taste in my mouth. Currently I am going to see how second private dealer is going to quote.
 

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