We recently installed New Rollers in 2 units on the 6 Color Heidelberg which I run. Since the new rollers have been in, I have had problems with the Pan Rollers Orange Peeling, They have been changed out twice for a roller with a differant compound, but after a month or so the Orange Peeling comes back, but only on the 2 units that have been replaced. All the settings have been double checked and are fine. Any Suggestions what is going on here? Somebody said that it was the Alkaless 3000 causing these rollers to Orang peel, But I'm not buying that. The Rollers in the Other units are fine and almost 3 years old. Could it be the Alkaless 3000? Could changing to Alkaless V maybe correct the problem?? What is the differance in the Alcohol Subs? Please Help!!
Question about Prisco 3451U and Alkaless 3000
- Thread starter cheetoh
- Start date
Cornishpastythighs
Well-known member
We run the exact same FS as you are and are not seeing the issues you are experiencing. When you say 'new' rollers are they just new rollers from the same supplier or are you trying a different supplier. How long have you been using the Prisco FS.
Cornishpastythighs
Well-known member
Roller supplier would be a good place to start I guess.
RJ Litho
RJ Litho
I have had the same problem .I have ran this combination of etch for 15 years you will notice it takes time for this to happen and when t does it will happen quicker if you pull the roller out
and let it rest the rubber will settle but orange peel will return.I have had my roller company come up with a compound to combat this. If you wish i can find out the compound.You can calL my cell 416-435-2494 . Bob M
RJ Litho
I have had the same problem .I have ran this combination of etch for 15 years you will notice it takes time for this to happen and when t does it will happen quicker if you pull the roller out
and let it rest the rubber will settle but orange peel will return.I have had my roller company come up with a compound to combat this. If you wish i can find out the compound.You can calL my cell 416-435-2494 . Bob M
RJ Litho
RJ Litho
Yes I have had 4 presses run with orange peel and one with out not sure why. . But with the new rubber all problem are resolved . I have been running this combo for 12 years . awesome .even better when there is a flow clear filtration unit hooked up. On our 73'' Roland we have not drained the tank in two years and Im not kidding the water is crystal clear And the secondary tanks are spotless.
RJ
RJ Litho
Yes I have had 4 presses run with orange peel and one with out not sure why. . But with the new rubber all problem are resolved . I have been running this combo for 12 years . awesome .even better when there is a flow clear filtration unit hooked up. On our 73'' Roland we have not drained the tank in two years and Im not kidding the water is crystal clear And the secondary tanks are spotless.
RJ
Gentlemen,
Some years ago, we found that several printers experienced roller swell (orange peel) when running the 3451U and Alkaless 3000. This seemed to be related primarily to a dark blue Bottcher roller.
If either the part of the fountain solution were changed, the problem would go away. Obviously, many customers loved the combination so that was sometimes a poor option. Bottcher did develope newer compounds and the issue seem to disappear. There were other fountain concentrates from other vendors that reacted the same with the particular roller. This seemed to only occur in 24 hour shops where the roller stayed emerged all the time. I would suggest looking at the rubber compound.
Some years ago, we found that several printers experienced roller swell (orange peel) when running the 3451U and Alkaless 3000. This seemed to be related primarily to a dark blue Bottcher roller.
If either the part of the fountain solution were changed, the problem would go away. Obviously, many customers loved the combination so that was sometimes a poor option. Bottcher did develope newer compounds and the issue seem to disappear. There were other fountain concentrates from other vendors that reacted the same with the particular roller. This seemed to only occur in 24 hour shops where the roller stayed emerged all the time. I would suggest looking at the rubber compound.
Presstechinmd
New member
Question about Prisco 3451U and Alkaless 3000
Dear Cheeto,
I will try my best to address your issue; I have seen this many times over the past 20+ years working on the print production and supply side of the industry.
The thing that is most perplexing about this issue for most is that many times the customer is ordering what they believe to be the exact same product that they always have ordered.
In most cases if you ask your supplier they will state quite emphatically that they have not changed anything. And in theory this is true. The one problem that comes into play though is the supply of the raw material that the manufacturer is using. Most manufacturers today have little to no control over the raw material. Many of the largest and best known suppliers have seen supply issues over the years. So with that in mind…
The orange peeling is definitely due to an incompatibility between the rubber on the roller and the chemistry you are using.
Now to the question: is it the Alkaless 3000? Maybe, maybe not!
It could be the fountain solution as well, or the mixing.
Obviously you could easily determine this by switching to something else, but what printer wants to open that Pandora’s Box.
Question two: Why only on the new rollers?
The answer is in your statement “The Rollers in the other units are fine and almost 3 years old.”
The age of the rollers is what is protecting the rollers from reacting with the chemical. New rollers are most susceptible to this problem. They are like sponges and absorb the chemical.
As rollers age, the plasticizers are leached form the roller (Plasticizers are what makes the rubber soft). I think if you where to put a durometer gauge on your rollers you will find that there is a substantial difference in hardness between the new and old rollers.
A new water roller on a Heidelberg press is typically between 23 – 27 durometer new.
Also, after three years the rollers will most likely be glazed. Glazing as you may know is the build up of Calcium on the roller surface. This will also protect the roller (and hinder its performance in other ways).
You can tell if your rollers are glazed simply by dragging your finger across the (not wet) roller. A non glazed roller will have some drag; with a glazed roller your finger will slide over easily with no drag.
Also, it is certainly nothing regarding your settings; if this was the case you should be able to move the roller and have the problem disappear, since obviously the lack of the issue in the other units would mean your settings are correct (Often a roller that has orange peeled will return back to normal once removed form the press and given ample time to dry out).
So lastly, the easiest thing for a printer to do would be to try a different roller supplier.
Changing the chemistry would have the same effect but rollers are easier to change.
If you need help in deciding what chemistry or roller to try let, me know I can help.
John
Dear Cheeto,
I will try my best to address your issue; I have seen this many times over the past 20+ years working on the print production and supply side of the industry.
The thing that is most perplexing about this issue for most is that many times the customer is ordering what they believe to be the exact same product that they always have ordered.
In most cases if you ask your supplier they will state quite emphatically that they have not changed anything. And in theory this is true. The one problem that comes into play though is the supply of the raw material that the manufacturer is using. Most manufacturers today have little to no control over the raw material. Many of the largest and best known suppliers have seen supply issues over the years. So with that in mind…
The orange peeling is definitely due to an incompatibility between the rubber on the roller and the chemistry you are using.
Now to the question: is it the Alkaless 3000? Maybe, maybe not!
It could be the fountain solution as well, or the mixing.
Obviously you could easily determine this by switching to something else, but what printer wants to open that Pandora’s Box.
Question two: Why only on the new rollers?
The answer is in your statement “The Rollers in the other units are fine and almost 3 years old.”
The age of the rollers is what is protecting the rollers from reacting with the chemical. New rollers are most susceptible to this problem. They are like sponges and absorb the chemical.
As rollers age, the plasticizers are leached form the roller (Plasticizers are what makes the rubber soft). I think if you where to put a durometer gauge on your rollers you will find that there is a substantial difference in hardness between the new and old rollers.
A new water roller on a Heidelberg press is typically between 23 – 27 durometer new.
Also, after three years the rollers will most likely be glazed. Glazing as you may know is the build up of Calcium on the roller surface. This will also protect the roller (and hinder its performance in other ways).
You can tell if your rollers are glazed simply by dragging your finger across the (not wet) roller. A non glazed roller will have some drag; with a glazed roller your finger will slide over easily with no drag.
Also, it is certainly nothing regarding your settings; if this was the case you should be able to move the roller and have the problem disappear, since obviously the lack of the issue in the other units would mean your settings are correct (Often a roller that has orange peeled will return back to normal once removed form the press and given ample time to dry out).
So lastly, the easiest thing for a printer to do would be to try a different roller supplier.
Changing the chemistry would have the same effect but rollers are easier to change.
If you need help in deciding what chemistry or roller to try let, me know I can help.
John
Orange peeling-Best solution.
Orange peeling-Best solution.
This p[roblem is related to Alcohol sub attacking rubber.
New rollers are required.
Your vender should know you are running alcohol sub containing butoxy ethonol!
The best roller to stand up to this problem by far can be obtained from A-korn rollers or from Heidelberg.
Request the "Westland-Red" Manufactored by Westland rollers. This is also Heidelberg original.Heidelberg swithched to these years ago due to this problem. They were the first toest eliminate this problem. Previously the only option was to lower your doseage of alchohol sub.
A-Korn rollers in Chicago is the distributor for Westland in the US.
Sincerly,
JOHN
Orange peeling-Best solution.
This p[roblem is related to Alcohol sub attacking rubber.
New rollers are required.
Your vender should know you are running alcohol sub containing butoxy ethonol!
The best roller to stand up to this problem by far can be obtained from A-korn rollers or from Heidelberg.
Request the "Westland-Red" Manufactored by Westland rollers. This is also Heidelberg original.Heidelberg swithched to these years ago due to this problem. They were the first toest eliminate this problem. Previously the only option was to lower your doseage of alchohol sub.
A-Korn rollers in Chicago is the distributor for Westland in the US.
Sincerly,
JOHN
Orange peeling
Orange peeling
I agree that the problem is due to an incompatability, which seems obvious.
As I stated earlier, when we changed either component, etch or sub, the orange peeling could be eliminated. The problem with that approach is if your fountain solution is doing well with your plate and ink, do you want to change for the roller, when a different roller will also solve the problem. Alkaless 3000 does contain 2-butoxy ethanol, but no more and not nearly as much as many other products that do not cause the orange peel. So there is more to it. The problem is related to a specific combination of chemistries.
I noticed that the original post did not mention the name of the roller manufacturer.
I do not want to use this forum to promote or denegrate any supplier. I do agree that a very good roller to use on the Heidy would be the OEM, Westland Red roller.
If a change in fountain chemistry is the direction you wish to go, Prisco has over 250 products and can cmost likely supply a chemistry that will allow you to use the new rollers.
However, the 3451U and Alkaless 3000 is a very popular combination and has excellent reservoir life as well as very good wetting and slip characteristics.
Feel free to contact me at (703) 675-7781.
Frank
Orange peeling
I agree that the problem is due to an incompatability, which seems obvious.
As I stated earlier, when we changed either component, etch or sub, the orange peeling could be eliminated. The problem with that approach is if your fountain solution is doing well with your plate and ink, do you want to change for the roller, when a different roller will also solve the problem. Alkaless 3000 does contain 2-butoxy ethanol, but no more and not nearly as much as many other products that do not cause the orange peel. So there is more to it. The problem is related to a specific combination of chemistries.
I noticed that the original post did not mention the name of the roller manufacturer.
I do not want to use this forum to promote or denegrate any supplier. I do agree that a very good roller to use on the Heidy would be the OEM, Westland Red roller.
If a change in fountain chemistry is the direction you wish to go, Prisco has over 250 products and can cmost likely supply a chemistry that will allow you to use the new rollers.
However, the 3451U and Alkaless 3000 is a very popular combination and has excellent reservoir life as well as very good wetting and slip characteristics.
Feel free to contact me at (703) 675-7781.
Frank
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