Rampage v13 to XMF or Prinergy.

[jay12345]

What do you guys think. I have sat through demonstrations on both and it seems to me that Prinergy is far ahead of XMF. My fuji rep keeps telling me all of the Kodak horror stories and i know that is a sales tactic but i do not have any experience with Prinergy or Kodak but i also know a lot of you do. Im looking to switch over to Prinergy with Preps or XMF. I will also be purchasing a platesetter so the options they are giving me are Kodaks achieve 400 with single cassette loader or Fuji's Dart 4300. Im looking to go completely chem free. Thanks in advance.

 

[mjetzer]

Used both. Kodak Prinergy is far ahead. The Kodak Platesetters are bullet proof. BUT, you need the service contract with Prinergy. I have heard the horror stories too, but they always seem to end up being some one without a service contract expecting contract like service. Or some one demanding something the system just doesn't do. I'm a big believe in service contracts, or workflow is the nerve center of all the rest of the operations. Why would you not that insurance? I know they are expensive, but so is press down time, overtime and missed delivery dates.

 

[jay12345]

Hi Mjetzer,

Thank you for your response. What was your experience like with XMF? I am leaning towards prinergy but i really would like to at least give xmf a shot.

 

[rich apollo]

Is there a reason you have narrowed your focus to only those two systems?

 

[Lester]

We have recently looked at Sierra, xmf, and Equios. So far we're leaning toward xmf. However, I would like to investigate Prinergy, Prinect and Apogee. I'm really searching for a hybrid workflow in which all prepress operators can set up digital and offset jobs using same workflow. Right now we're working as if both worlds are separate: Rampage for offset and efi Fiery CWS in digital. I've read on efi's website that 3 workflows (Prinergy, Prinect, Apogee) can be integrated with Fiery but I'm wondering to what extent. Can the workflows handle variable data? Anyone have any experience using Prinergy, Prinect, or Apogee to print direct to efi Fiery Command Workstation? Sorry jay 12345, I'm not really helping with your question...

 

[zombie]

Jay, are you looking for a brand new CTP, or a used one?

 

[jay12345]

Is there a reason you have narrowed your focus to only those two systems?

Not really Rich. I have been a fuji customer for a long time so that just seemed the likely way to go. To be honest i never really looked into the others because i just assume prinergy would be the likely alternative to rampage. I was not even going to look into prinergy until i took the webex for XMF and found out that there was no way of editing traps. the demonstrator kind of gave me an excuse that sounding something like "since we dont have it, you dont need it". I see that prinergy's offering in trap editing is just an acrobat plugin but at least they have something. i get that the adobe trap engine is way better and you likely dont have to edit the traps often but there are always going to be cases where you need to. i also use rampages trapit to build bumps, varnishes, and white inks on a daily basis. i dont want to not have this ability. i kind of feel like i have been scared away from prinergy over the years by there reputation for the high cost of ownership. i have the quotes in front of me for fuji and kodak and fuji is more. with fuji they are quoting the xmf, xmf remote, and dart 4300s with single cassette at about $180,000 and kodak is quoting for prinergy, preps, insite, kodak achieve 400 with single cassette loader for $167,000. the service is quite a bit more with kodak at $7500 annually vs. $4500 from fuji. but thats not really that far off if prinergy is a better product with more functionality.

 

[rich apollo]

Jay, I'm not knocking either of them, I just wondered what your criteria are. You might take a look at Screen, and some of the Harlequin based offerings like Xitron. I ran Trueflow for a number of years and liked it. By far the lowest support costs I've seen. And it used to have a trap editor - it's been while since I ran it. Do you really need a trap editor? Maybe, maybe not. If the system has vector-based trapping, then perhaps. I had really good luck with Apogee's raster-based trapping - they have no trap editor.

Are either of those prices hinged on a consumables deal?

 

[rich apollo]

Lester, what I've seen of "hybrid" workflows is pretty crummy. Basically, the front-end kicks out a raster file that you can push into your digital front-end. The needs of digital and offset are so different that I see no advantage to combining the two. And, from what I've seen, you're still going to need the digital front-end to drive the output device and handle calibration.

The "hybrid" integration that I looked at a few years ago did not handle variable data.

 

[pabney]

I am running XMF, there is an Acrobat plugin for editing trap zones. Never had to use it on a live job, but have played with it a bit.
Know nothing about Prinergy.

 

[zoran]

We use Prinect and are very happy with it.
It is complete solution with trap editor, plugin form Acrobat for all kinds of helpful things like varnishes, spot colors, trim boxes, splitting, scaling, etc.. you name it.
We also have license for "Digital gate" that lets you print to digital devices.
At this point we only configured it with our Nexpress that becomes just one of devices in workflow so same PDF you have imposed and printing to presses using APPE, just redirects to Nexpress queue, no raster.
Variable data in our shop is handled by separate department so we never looked into it but with new APPE and PFX/VT I don't see a reason for not supporting it.

 

[jay12345]

is there really? they are telling me there is no such thing.

 

[[email protected]]

We are in the exact same position here although we are not planning to replace our screen platesetter, only the front end. I would love to hear from any xmf, Apogee or Prinect users out there concerning hybrid workflows, trapping, and service contract costs and experiences.

Thanks!

 

[DCurry]

I ran Apogee 6 & 7 a few years ago and found the trapping to be fine. I didn't have to make varnish plates with it, though, or do anything real fancy. The actual trapping occurred during final rasterization of the plate data, so while you couldn't edit traps directly, you could open the PDF before trapping and create zones on the page if you wanted different areas of the page to use different trap settings.

I think they might have had a varnish builder plugin or something similar, but I never used it.

 

[pabney]

XMF has the same kind of zonal trapping. You open the pdf and create named zones that use different trap settings.
That being said, I have yet had any need to do such, as my default settings seem to work fine. The only issues I have had to deal with special have to do with the black overprinting on metallic.

 

[jay12345]

I think we are going with Prinergy. I do feel after all i have seen, Prinergy does have more to offer. And I am not seeing the high cost of ownership with Kodak. It seems they have changed some things and made the product more in line price wise with the competition. My quote from Fuji for XMF, Remote, and Dart 4300s is higher than Kodak for Prinergy, Insight, and Achieve 400s by about $15k. The service is more with kodak at about $3000 a year more but i can live with that for a better product. And i can edit my traps...

 

[Qbot]

Anybody out there using Metrix with Prinergy? I interviewed at a commercial printer that is using Metrix for some of there quoting. Metrix is then used for the imposition as well. They don't use Metrix all the time though. Actually it sounds like most jobs are done through Rampage/Preps workflow. As I understand it XMF has imposition capability so no need for preps. Other systems as well out there... sure is enough to think about.

 

[Raymond Ramirez]

I am running XMF, there is an Acrobat plugin for editing trap zones. Never had to use it on a live job, but have played with it a bit.
Know nothing about Prinergy.

From what I have seen The FFEi engine is a pretty good engine. This would include the Sierra and XMF. The CTP device's should be top notch because they have had over 20 years of RND. I would be looking at cost of ownership and being able to interface it to different devices.

 

[csawatzki]

XMF is an excellent solution, but should be quite a bit cheaper than Prinergy. Prinergy has a system that can not be beat, but for the most part you have to pay for every single piece of functionallity. Not knowing your extent of use, it is hard to make a suggestion. If I was you, I would reach out to Fuji, have them demo for everything you would use it for, and if they can do all of it, I would go XMF so long as they could beat the price of Kodak, and that your annual service costs are going to be much lower than Kodak.

 

[Rick@IPCO]

With XMF, major software updates are included in the support contract. With Kodak, you will pay. In the long run, XMF will cost less.