Ricoh 651/751

[Iceman]

Hello guys.

Any real user feedback on the Ricoh 651/751?

My printshop is thinking about looking into purchaising the Ricoh and any feedback would be great

Thanks

 

[PrintTriks]

Yea that's what I'm looking for as well, only thing I got was a demo. Have you gotten a demo yet?

 

[Iceman]

We are waiting also Mr. Print Tricks.
We got a sales rep with some prints to look at. They looked good and promesing. Somewhat a Indigo/offset look and feel.

Best is to get some feedback from a end user!

 

[MarkPalmer]

We have a C751EX on order where I'm at, it should be installed and in operation within the next couple of weeks. I will let the forum know how it's working. It's replacing a small Ricoh C700.

-Mark-

 

[PrintTriks]

Thank you, I would really like to hear your report.

Now as to print quality I have done blind samples with my staff between files printed on the 651 and the 6000. The results are @ 50/50 split with the general consensus that the pictures look better on the konica and text, solids and graphics are better on the Ricoh. Bear in mind the difference in print quality is very small so it is not a night and day difference. The real stand out to me was the speed of the Ricoh and registration (no skewing) of the Ricoh. The 6000 I saw still had the same Skew issue my KM500 does. They really do seem do be built for 2 different purposes, so a lot may boil down to what you print.

 

[MarkPalmer]

I'm not expecting the type of registration a printing press with a pull guide and actual headstops can deliver, and I think that is still a while off for these types of printers. But from what I have read and heard the Ricoh system is very decent. I'll be going through the training on the C751 from Ricoh, and will then know what it's capable (or not capable) of. I'm at the point now of just hoping for the best.

-Mark-

 

[Iceman]

For me, the front to back reg. is one of the main issues. I´m printing a lot of business cards and would like to fit them on the max size paper without having the skew out of range. The printsamples i got where outstanding... both in image and large solids where good. As i mentioned... a little Indigo/offset look and feel.

Wil be interesting to hear from you guys when machine is in your floor

Thanks!

 

[prajna]

I'm curious of two things, if anyone can offer info:

1) What was the "demo" terms - i.e., how long do you have the machine, what is your commitment, do you pay for clicks, are they unlimited, etc.?

2) What are people's thoughts on the single fuser? We currently have a Canon 7000, and worry about units with a single vs. double fuser. Competitors would have you believe the machine will fall apart without the two units.

Thanks in advance!

 

[PrintTriks]

In the demo I was allowed to run my files and stock as well as some of theirs. Not sure if this answers your question but at the demo I was not limited on clicks are charged and I made no commitment. In my demo I was given a 2 hour window that ended up being 3.5 hours and I could have spent longer.

On the single vs double fuser I have not owned a machine with two, however I have millions of impressions through several Canon Ir's and I assure you they work just fine.

 

[prajna]

Thanks PrintTriks. I thought the demo you mentioned was a temporary onsite installation. My bad.

We too have many ImageRunners, which yes, have single fusers. My concern was more about production color with a single fusing unit on the Ricoh. I know it has a liquid cooling unit, which sounds intriguing. But a single fusing unit, especially at larger volumes, has me concerned.

 

[PrintTriks]

Sorry, no I seen it in Charlotte. The liquid cooling is only on the developer units, the fuser is using air cooling fins that extend off the back of the fuser. I really don't know but I have pushed 70,000 through an IR in 4 days with out issue, so I figure being color shouldn't make much difference. They are using a belt to also lower temps, not sure how that works but I see others doing that as well.

 

[MarkPalmer]

I don't see what the advantage would be to double fusers, at least not in this type of color printer. Just sounds like more heat and more parts to wear out to me. One big thing to keep in mind is the C651/751 are intended as light production color machines, not a cheaper way to get in to or replace a very high volume color production machine. If put in to environments with those types of users, I think they will be disappointed.

We were "undersold" as far as color when we got the Ricoh C700EX, where the salespeople said it could perform all our work just fine, and it turned out it was simply too light duty of a machine for our needs. My feeling with printers has always been its better to invest in a little too much for your needs rather than be stuck with way too little. The "happy medium" companies and salespeople try to push never ends up happening.

-Mark-

 

[TOprint]

Prajna,

The 651/751 can come with an additional fuser that is user replaceable. Not sure I see the benefit of a device running two fusers instead of one. From my perspective, two fusers gives two points of failure ... would be interested to know your take on this.

 

[[email protected]]

Fuser confusion

Fuser confusion

Prajna,

The 651/751 can come with an additional fuser that is user replaceable. Not sure I see the benefit of a device running two fusers instead of one. From my perspective, two fusers gives two points of failure ... would be interested to know your take on this.

You might have this misunderstood. The 651/751 only has one fuser but like many other digital devices if you run for instance alot of 11" and switch to 18 or 19" you may see fuser lines at the 11" area. Ricoh's trained customer replaceable units program includes a spare fuser which is easy to swap out. Plus if there's actually something wrong with the fuser the tech can rebuild it onsite.

 

[PrintTriks]

We have a 651 installed, still way to early to know how it will run but I will try and update everyone on how it performs.

 

[Iceman]

Any word Mr. Printtricks?

 

[prajna]

We currently run a Canon 7000VP. Regarding the dual fusing units, it's my understanding that this is what creates the ability to run all stocks at rated speed without slowing down. Uses the single fuser, or two fusers, as needed. Also helps with mixed media, so no slowing down to cool the fuser, heat back up, etc., etc. Ricoh's competitors want us to believe this single unit will also lead to an earlier breakdown and degradation of the machine, meaning it's a weaker build than the Canon. One issue they've raised is that the single will overheat. But I'm certainly no buying that, as that's the very purpose for the liquid cooling - to maintain constant temp. I've been hearing nothing but good things about this new Ricoh machine.

 

[PrintTriks]

Well I wanted to wait till after a few long runs before I really started reporting much. On the fuser issue Prajna your are correct, it only helps with mixed media and rated speed running. The liquid cooling is only on the developer, not the fuser, it has cooling fins off the back for cooling the fuser. For breaking down I have 2 fusers and they said I could have 3 if I wanted, so if it goes down I'll just stick in another and keep running.

1. Quality
Line, text, screens, solids are excellent, and I mean really good.
Photographs - well I have seen better, but not much, so I will not be loosing much if any work on this.
Besides I am still figuring out how to tweak them.
2. Stocks
So far it eats coated and and cover with no problems. I have duplex 271gsm with out issue, yes I know rated is 256gsm. That is one feature I really like, not only can you lie to it, but in the advance paper settings you can adjust the voltage and fusing temp to what the paper actually is, that way it runs properly. I did initially have trouble running stocks below 100lb text, but that was a minor issue that they now have straightened out.
3. Registration
Absolutely the best I have ever seen! I knew I was having trouble with registration and skewing (Konica) but until I started running this I really did not know how bad it was, just the time and money that will save me is amazing.
4. Speed
I went form the old KM Pro 500 (50ppm) to the 651 (65ppm) which on the surface is not a big jump. However I run a lot of coated and cover stock and the speed difference is really noticeable. ie I took a 2 hour job last week and ran it in @ 30 min., partly because of the LCT (my KM didn't have) and engine speed.

I should have a couple long runs coming up an I will let you know how that goes.

 

[Happyprinter]

TOprint, be sure if you decide to go with a Rico unit that you include in your contract that the machine will come with a 2nd fuser unit. Dont rely on the sales departments word. We were told that it came with a 2nd unit but upon delivery found out that it was not included in the contract so we are still fighting them over the 2nd unit.

 

[IkonCTRep]

TOprint, be sure if you decide to go with a Rico unit that you include in your contract that the machine will come with a 2nd fuser unit. Dont rely on the sales departments word. We were told that it came with a 2nd unit but upon delivery found out that it was not included in the contract so we are still fighting them over the 2nd unit.

If you are a commercial printer we are not allowed to sell it without a 2nd fuser. You need at least 1 extra because of burn ins created when switching sheet sizes. As far as dual fusers go it is a great marketing ploy. Every company has there marketing ploys- even us. Or C901 can outwork a C7010 any day and only has one fuser. We sold Canon C7000VP's at Ikon right before Ricoh acquired us so I still experience service issues from Ricoh's and Canon's. The C7010VP is the same animal as the C7000VP. My technicians have told me this many times. One thing I could offer as proof is they both receive the same firmware updates so the have the same brains. Here are some real differences in both boxes and you can decide for yourselves which one best fits your needs. The Ricoh C901 will do 90 pages per minute no matter what substrate you run through it verses Canon's 70. True the Canon will not slow down on mixed media but you can make the Ricoh do the same as long as you choose the same weight settings for each drawer. The slow down only occurs because the machine is changing the paper path depending on the weight of the paper so as long as you make them the same- no slow down. My technician's tell me easily the Ricoh needs less maintenance. They usually do calls every 15k- 25k on the Canon whereas the Ricoh's usually got to 150k - 200k. Now they all agree that the Canon makes a better image, not a substantially better image but notable enough to them. However the Canon units are down for service a lot more and require a lot more babying. Hope this helps.