Some help with FOGRA, please!

[Gregg]

I have a print vendor, in the Far East, that has suggested we use FOGRA39 for coated stock and either FOGRA47 or FOGRA52 for uncoated. Based on this request, I have a few questions:

1) where can i download the FOGRA47 and FOGRA52 profiles? I did some searching and could only find characteristics for 47, but no actual profiles.

2) the vendor also went on to say that their Total Ink Limit is 320 for coated and 280 for uncoated. FOGRA39 has a total ink limit of 350, so how can they request 320?

3) while searching for profiles I found specs for FOGRA47 and FOGRA47L, what is the L profile?

I've always been confused regarding FOGRA, mainly because of the high total ink limit. Our main repro house, also in the Far East, uses ISO Coated VS 300% (ECI). Is that a modified version of FOGRA39?

Many thanks in advance for any feedback.

 

[Bret Hesler]

You can download profiles from Downloads [ECI.ORG] about half way down the page is eci_offset_2009.zip

PSO_Uncoated_ISO12647_eci.icc is made from FOGRA47L. FOGRA47 is the ECI2002 target, and FOGRA47L is the IT8.7/4 target, with the same colorimetric aims.

ISOcoated_v2_eci.icc is made from FOGRA39L with a 330 total ink. ISOcoated_v2_300_eci.icc has 300 total ink.

If you need other total ink values, you have to make your own profile.

 

[Gregg]

Thanks, Bret. In layman's terms how would briefly describe the difference between FOGRA and ECI?

Are ECI profiles just FOGRA profiles with custom Total Ink Limits?

And what would you say to a print vendor that suggested using FOGRA39 but also said they will reject a Total Ink Limit >320?

 

[Puch]

Thanks, Bret. In layman's terms how would briefly describe the difference between FOGRA and ECI?

Are ECI profiles just FOGRA profiles with custom Total Ink Limits?

And what would you say to a print vendor that suggested using FOGRA39 but also said they will reject a Total Ink Limit >320?

FOGRA is a German industry association, doing much of the hard work behind today's practical (and advanced) color management topics, ath least here in Europe. ECI is another association founded by European industry players, to form a color standard which can be used throughout the prepress and press production chain. The two are intertwined in many points, since most of the brains behind them are the same.

ECI is authorized to publish and distribute the official FOGRA profiles along the original characterization data.

Rejecting TAC higher than 320 percent makes a lot of sense from a production viewpoint, and it's not really hard to achieve in the prepress. Just separate / convert into ISO Coated v2 300% (ECI) and you're good to go. The color will be the same, the black generation will be a bit more GCR-ish, of course. If you have a good profiling package, then you can make your own profiles for a given TAC, from the original FOGRA characterization data. Alternatively, you can use other tested and verified profiles like VIGC's (do a Google search for them).

 

[Gregg]

Rejecting TAC higher than 320 percent makes a lot of sense from a production viewpoint, and it's not really hard to achieve in the prepress. Just separate / convert into ISO Coated v2 300% (ECI) and you're good to go.

Forgive me for my naivete, but then why use FOGRA39 in the first place? Would it not make more sense for the print vendor to suggest ISO Coated v2 300% (ECI) instead?

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Forgive me for my naivete, but then why use FOGRA39 in the first place? Would it not make more sense for the print vendor to suggest ISO Coated v2 300% (ECI) instead?

Good question! I hope that I don’t muddy the waters with this reply…

It makes sense for a printer that may not know too much about profiles and colour management to request that one provide separations for a reference print condition/specification. They could have asked for separations to be created using a profile for ISO 12647-2:2004, however that may have been a bit confusing as I believe that both Fogra39 and GRACoL C1 are both supposed to be for the same ISO 12647-2:2004 condition, but they are slightly different (IDEAlliance/GRACoL made alterations to the TVI etc)!

ISO Coated v2 and Fogra39/F39 profiles should describe exactly the same reference print condition.

For example, Kodak ship F39 or Fogra39 icc profiles with their software - however as they are not supplied by the ECI, they are created by Kodak from F39/F39L data and are not called ISO Coated v2 etc. I guess it could be just as valid to ask why the ECI named the profiles ISO Coated v2 rather than using the characterisation data name.

All one has to do is then find out which profile is based on the target characterisation data!

FOGRA39

____________

EDIT: Kodak also supply F47 profiles with say Prinergy or Kodak Proofing Software (KPS).

The F39 characterisation data is created from a chart using 1485 patches.
The F39L(arge) characterisation data is created from a chart using 1617 patches.

As for Fogra 47 reference data and profiles:

Uncoated_Fogra47L_VIGC_260.icc
Uncoated_Fogra47L_VIGC_300.icc

VIGC Max TAC ICC-profiles


And Fogra 51 & 52 beta:

http://www.eci.org/en/projects/fred15

FOGRA52beta Testphase - www.fogra.org

____________


Stephen Marsh

 

[Puch]

Forgive me for my naivete, but then why use FOGRA39 in the first place? Would it not make more sense for the print vendor to suggest ISO Coated v2 300% (ECI) instead?

On the practical, prepress operator / business consultant level, one can say that FOGRA_39 == ISO Coated v2. The FOGRA_XX is the measurement data set, the ISO Coated v2 is the profile name, they can be exchanged, the two meaning the same (again, on the very practical level).

You can produce an infinite number of profiles from a given data set, and industry experts are doing it on a daily base, depending on the requirements of the actual printing process. The difference between those profiles are the GCR level, the gamut mapping, the accuracy of profile calculation, etc. In out practice, we found out that Adobe supplied FOGRA profiles are of inferior quality, official FOGRA (ECI) profiles are good, and profiles generated with a basICColor profiling package are the best. Do a web search and you will find them around.

 

[Gregg]

In out practice, we found out that Adobe supplied FOGRA profiles are of inferior quality, official FOGRA (ECI) profiles are good, and profiles generated with a basICColor profiling package are the best. Do a web search and you will find them around.

Hi, Puch. Revisiting this thread, what would you say are the reasons that Adobe supplied FOGRA profiles are inferior?

 

[Puch]

Hi Gregg,

I don't know the reasons, we just saw many materials produced using the stock Adobe profiles, which showed excessive plugging in the shadows, and some gamut mapping issues, posterization. My best guess is that they (Adobe) approach this topic on a pragmatic level, while German industry organizations (eg. the mentioned FOGRA) developed very sophistiocated methods to evaluate and tweak datasets and profiles, to make them usable in real-life standardized workflows. IMHO their documentation is much better and their profiles produce visually more appealing results.

There is another, Belgian industry organization which published fine profiles, with extreme high, yet usable GCR: take a look at VIGC - English

 

[Gregg]

Yes, Stephen Marsh had suggested I check out the VIGC profiles as well. From what I have gathered, the only profiles with "FOGRA" in the profile name are Adobe supplied. For example, if I ask one of our Far East printers what profile they recommend they will state FOGRA39, but they will supply me with an ISO_ECI profile.

 

[Puch]

Hi Gregg,

I this has roots in the past, when Adobe supplied profiles was based on unpublished measurement data. When FOGRA published its datasets, Adobe might have the intention to enforce the recognition that the new profiles they supply are based on FOGRA datasets.

As I see, FOGRA doesn't publish color profiles, since profile building parameters are up to the actual usage. FOGRA only supply the datasets, and check their accuracy with very sophisticated methods.

As Far Eastern printers got up to the standardization bandwagon a bit late, they all use the very mature FOGRA 39 dataset for sheetfed printing, and the profiles downloaded from ECI - I consider that a very good practice.