Strange PDF Issue with Onyx - Any Ideas?

[jbingaman]

Good morning all,

I've had a couple of issues lately with pdfs that have been created for wide format output. (I would've posted this question in the WF forum, but figured it has more to do with pdf creation than wf printing)

So far, I've not been able to determine the issue, but I'm quite certain it has to do with the way the file was created.

Here's an example...

PDF is opened in Onyx by our wide format technician and it looks as though it wasn't properly flattened...layers that are on top show what's behind them (sometimes). I'm not sure how else to explain it...a photo that has a box of color overlaying it containing text shows through the box of color in what looks like a Photoshop Layer Blending mode set on 'Exclusion' or 'Difference'.
If the PDF is opened in Acrobat, you don't see this and it appears to be correct. It does not show that there are even any layers in the document, BUT the same pdf opened in Onyx looks problematic as described above.
So far we've found that if we open the file in Photoshop, Flatten it and Save as pdf, then open it in Onyx...it's fine.

Does anyone have a clue as to what may be the problem? It seems like it has to do with the flattening on the pdf when it's created, but as mentioned...no layers are visible in the layers pallet of Acrobat.

wtf?

Thanks in advance for any feedback!
-Jeremy

 

[leonardr]

Re: Strange PDF Issue with Onyx - Any Ideas?

Sounds like a case of improper use of Overprinting...

But without seeing the actual file in question - we'd only be guessing. Can you post it?

Leonard

 

[jbingaman]

Re: Strange PDF Issue with Onyx - Any Ideas?

I'll have to see if I can make it a little smaller...it's about 54MB.

When you say 'overprinting'...do mean incorrect in the way the pdf is created (something set wrong in IDD or Acrobat) or do you feel that it could be an 'overprint' setting within Onyx?

Thanks for the input Leonard!

 

[leonardr]

Re: Strange PDF Issue with Onyx - Any Ideas?

Could be either - or both.

Again, can't tell without the file...

Leonard

 

[ScottyDoo]

Re: Strange PDF Issue with Onyx - Any Ideas?

Does your file have a combo of raster and vector elements?

There are known transparency issues with PDF's when it comes to raster effects on top of vector elements. An example being that often times a designer will add drop shadow to some text in Illustrator. That's all fine and dandy, but that drop shadow is now a raster element, so when you load the file into Onyx, it renders the raster and the vector differently so you will see a box around the text that is a slightly different shade of color.

Does this sound like what's happening?

If this is the case try setting your rendering intents to this:

RENDERING INTENT:
Image: Relative Colorimetric
Vector: Relative Colorimetric

With this both elements will be rendered the same and 90% of the time this eliminates that problem.

This is assuming obviously that this is indeed the problem you're having. Let me know!

----
Scott Manwaring / Administrator
ONYXTalk.com - Peer to Peer Support & Discussion

 

[jbingaman]

Re: Strange PDF Issue with Onyx - Any Ideas?

Thanks Scott...I'll look into this. What you described has happened before so this may be the ticket.

Thanks to you also Leonard! I wanted to upload the file, but it's too large.

We'll check this out and reply accordingly.

 

[leonardr]

Re: Strange PDF Issue with Onyx - Any Ideas?

Scott - all drop shadows created by Adobe applications are vector-based, not raster. The only time you'd end up with raster effects is if you EXPLICITLY CHOOSE the Raster Effects menu items from Illustrator (so that implies that you know what you are doing) or that you are pre-flattening the PDF with lower quality settings.

Leonard

 

[jonkovach]

Re: Strange PDF Issue with Onyx - Any Ideas?

I am curious - can you take a screenshot of the problem in question, as you look at it in PreFlight?

What happens when you turn the Color Matching Table off in Onyx, then apply those settings in PreFlight? Does the problem go away? This is a workaround that we use, sometimes, if we can get away with turning the Pantone matching off.....

Jon

 

[Chris]

Re: Strange PDF Issue with Onyx - Any Ideas?

Are you viewing the pdf in Acrobat? Sounds like 'Overprint Preview' is on. Check it off – then see how the file looks.

 

[ScottyDoo]

Re: Strange PDF Issue with Onyx - Any Ideas?

I suppose to be more accurate I should really say that Onyx often times treats and/or interprets the drop shadow effects out of Illustrator like raster elements when the files is imported and are therefore they are rendered differently.

 

[michaelejahn]

Re: Strange PDF Issue with Onyx - Any Ideas?

Adobe just recently created and released their new version of the PDF Engine, and I think I can confidenly say that your ONYX rip does not use it, so all bets are off as to if it can process Transparency settings properly.

One thing you might try -- as Adobe is pretty good at being able to eat and digest its own dog food. If you are in a pinch, you can always open the PDF file in Acrobat and the save as EPS - this forces an Adobe technology to dumb the code down to PostScript - you can even further make this simpler (although this makes the file size HUGE) - by selecting Level 2 encoding. Even the older RIPS can process these files.

I will now take my 300 lashes with a RAMpage user manual for suggesting such a horrible approach.

a thousand apologies to Leonard and Adobe et all, as the correct answer is most likely "upgrade the RIP"

 

[Mandoo]

Re: Strange PDF Issue with Onyx - Any Ideas?

I've been a long suffering user of Onyx, your problem is really not uncommon. The problem is that Onyx is not a true post script level 3 rip. They don't buy code from adobe or any one else it seems, they write it all them selfs. This means that onyx wont process pdfs accurately. The best solution is to scream and jump up and down until you are allowed a proper rip such as EFI EX. The less expensive route i found was to flatten all your pdfs in photoshop then save them out in an image format. Onyx has been the bain of my life for about 5 years. It is such a poorly written piece of software, they make promises that they cannot keep as it seems that every thing is produced on a shoe string budget. You will either need to save out as pdf 1.3 and totally flatten your pdf or manually flatten in photo shop. That is the only way i have found to make onyx behave, even then i still have had colour issues.

Best solution - get a popper rip.

 

[cosmo]

Re: Strange PDF Issue with Onyx - Any Ideas?

I have been a long suffering user of Onyx as well, I rasterize in photoshop and save as TIFF, onyx deals with PDFs poorly and its painfully slow to RIP them. Another thing i hate about Onyx is how long it takes to profile a new media.

 

[jbingaman]

Re: Strange PDF Issue with Onyx - Any Ideas?

Thanks to everyone for their input and taking the time to post a response. The information I got was very helpful, although other than realizing that ONYX evidently sucks across the board..I was still unable to pinpoint the issue. We simply open in PS, flatten and Save As .tif. This seems to work, but I don't believe it is the best approach. We'll continue with this work-around until we're able to get a new RIP.

Thanks again everyone!

-Jeremy

 

[jonkovach]

Re: Strange PDF Issue with Onyx - Any Ideas?

I am a long time "sufferer" of Onyx RIP, however in the past 5 years, I've never had a PDF file that Onyx could not handle. Sure there have been issues, but aren't there issues with ALL RIPs?

If not Onyx, then what RIP is best for wide format output?

I am wondering if you could send me the file, Jeremy, and I could have a look at it? PM me if this isn't a problem..... I am just surprised that there is no other solution other than rasterizing the PDF. I've never had to do that, and we run tons of file types through here.

Jon

 

[JJones]

Re: Strange PDF Issue with Onyx - Any Ideas?

Some valuable information for ONYX users to understand.

ONYX does NOT write their own RIP. We use the JAWS RIP by Global Graphics. The issues being discussed here is not that the RIP suddenly can not handle the files being sent. It is that when Adobe (and other design applications) upgrade their software they change the way they handle special effects like transparencies, vector, and Raster data. For instance, PDF's created with CS3 often combine vector and image data and rasterize parts of the image while leaving others in vector. This causes the RIP vendors to create a new approach to color management

ONYX version 7.2 (which will be releasing very soon) has an updated RIP to handle these types of files and has been very heavily tested against such issues. In the current version (7.1) there are a couple workarounds which have worked for all but a small number of files to get around the issue. Under Configure RIP settings you can add FIXIMGTRANS and FIXSPOTTRANS wth a value of off. Also turning of the color matching table. Between these 3 items we have been able to properly render files with transparencies and special effects.

If you have issues with the ONYX software (and with any software for that matter) you need to contact the company producing the software and talk with them. This way they can know there is an issue and get it fixed. This will also provide you with an opportunity to learn about any possible workarounds and when the issue is scheduled to be fixed.

 

[kandod]

That thread is too old now, but in case someone looking for answers encounters it I think I found a solution for that issue, that still exists in Postershop 7.3. First I have those "pale boxes" around images, indicating where transparency should be, only in flattened images (when saving Acrobat 4 pdf the result is a flattened document, with no transparency). So with the flattened images the problem is connected, in my opinion, with the color management module of Postershop, witch is for some reason unable to interpret correctly the areas with former transparency. If I choose All Profiles Off, witch disables color management, the boxes disappear. So if you want to preserve color appearance you can convert colors in the document in Illustrator or if you have some standardized color managed workflow and the ability to generate device-link ICC profiles, you can use that to bypass Postershop CMM. Postershop works with device-link profiles the same way as with the standard - use the device-link profiles as "input" profiles in your job.

 

[kat johnson]

I ran into a few files over the last few months that have had issues with rendering correctly. I updated to the latest version of Onyx (7.3.2) and it solved most of the issues I had. Just Recently got an individual RIP Patch that fixed my last outstanding issue. all is well.