tired of brokering envelopes-is Xante the answer

O

ondemandbindery

Well-known member
Hi all. The envelope seems to be the great barrier for the digital market. I have been brokering printing for the last 4 months since the Bindery side of my business has really fallen off and quite honestly I need a resolution for printing simple 2 color envelopes. I have tried to read as much info as I can find about the Xante and the PSI units but there seems to be a recurring theme that these machines are not profitable. I have absolutely no interest in offset as I consider it Analog Printing and it is just not the vision of where I want to go. My run lengths are in the 2500-5000 range and can range from 1 to 3 color so this work is truly cookie cutter basic stationary work. Any input, ideas, or experience would be greatly appreciated and thank you ahead of time.
 
Can you be more specific as to why these machines are said to be not profitable? Why is it not a simple matter of adjusting the selling price?

Historically printing on folded stock has always been a challenge for printers equipped with presses intended for printing on flat sheets. Dedicated specialty machines on the other hand are extremely productive.

Al
 
not super familiar with the Xante machine, but I'd imagine your run lengths would be on the high side for the xante machine.

I know you don't want to print offset, but you run lengths might still require a traditional offset process.
 
Thanks for the replys. If you try to filter through information about the laser printers which try to do envelopes then there just seems to be a recurring theme as to the profitability of these machines. Part of what I read into is the initial cost but if the ROI is justified then 20k is not that big of an investment in the grand scheme of things. As for traditional offset, it is of no interest to me. I will leave that battle to the people who have that equipment in place. My workflow in the Bindery business is leaning more towards digital so I say the handwriting is on the wall. I am starting to work on a project which will require variable data on envelopes so I need to go digital machine. As a side note, I contacted PSI this week. The person whom I spoke with was suppose to send me some email with information but I have yet to receive it. Just another case of a Vendor taking their own sweet time at the expense of someone else but that would be a whole different topic. The one thing I learned about the PSI is it does have color control unlike the XANTE so that is a big factor in my opinion but atleast XANTE did send me literature.
 
Crack! Pop! (That's the sound of my knuckles cracking as I prepare to type)

I have an Ilumina (not the Envelope model) and it does fantastic on envelopes- self seal, linen, laid, even a 9x12 photo on a 10x13 envelope. In another thread, I think someone asked about addressing on preprinted UV coated post cards. I do! And if I had the Envelope Press (Xante calls it the media feeder) it would make those post cards a hell of a lot easier! I agree with Corey, 5000 would probably be pushing it but if it's got variable info, there is no limit. They advertise 1.5 cents per impression but I think 2-3 cents is more realistic because anything heavier than 20lb bond is harder on your drums. So, 5000 full color envelopes at .03 cents would cost $175 + machine + labor + envelopes. And if they are VDP you can tack on a premium and other set-up charges. I don't know what your market is or your overhead, but Vistaprint wants to charge $719.99 for 5000. I know I can beat that AND keep a good margin.

Speaking of costs, Xante is still holding the price at $14,999. Wait till the end of the month for some bargaining leverage. Try contacting this dealer- Xante Laser Printers - Xante Color Printers - The Richardson Company
His name is George and is very nice and helpful. I buy all my consumables from him and he offers free tech support when you buy from him. If it wasn't for him, I would have thrown my Ilumina out the damn window! AND he saves me money on the consumables. Trust me when I say this- he is not a typical dealer/sales rep. He won't paint a rosy picture and tell you the Ilumina makes sandwiches too. Don't get me wrong, he does stand behind his products.

As for color control, the Ilumina does very well at automatic calibration. As long as you print from a smart program (not Reader) and have your color profiles set, you'll have few problems. And keep in mind, some PMS colors are harder to build than others. But if that is not enough, Xante has their OpenRIP Symphony. I have no experience with it but I have heard a lot of good about it. In fact, I'm considering purchasing it along with a new machine. Damn, I sound like I work for Xante...

In conclusion, I do not work for or represent Xante. Ondemandbindery, If you'd like, it would be my pleasure to talk to you and pass on my experiences with the Ilumina I've had for three years.

I am tired of typing,
Keith
 
mmmm a sandwich, it's nice to hear there are still companies out there that put in some extra effort to help the customer. Good review Keith, i think others will agree that at times they do want to throw the Xante out the window, but when you have good help available, it has a nice fit in the market.
 
Thanks for the replys. What I am initially looking for is a way to not rely on another printer for envelopes. For what I am trying to do right now I am using a IBM 1567 infoprint but need some type of envelope processing needs. Somewhere around Q4 of this year is when I hope to have a better understanding of just how I am going to mix variable data into the market I am going after. If I can produce simple #10 bond envelopes and make a marginal profit after the expense of purchasing one of these, then for me it will be justified. As my user name shows, I am by trade a finishing house but since what I am set up to do appears to be pretty volatile and will be from here on out, I need to diversify and the reality is Digital is kicking right along. What about the feeder issues with the XANTE? The PSI feeds like a typical friction feeder attachment but I like the idea of the XANTE if the uneven stacks do not throw it a major curve ball.
 
I have had the Ilumina for a little over a year now. I don't have the one with the envelope feeder and
I have run jobs up to 2500 in run length, some 4 color and others, 2 color. It's a large pain in the butt
to feed 25 or 30 at a time, but the quality is there for short runs.
My biggest issue with Xante is the cost of consumables (toner and drums). I had conversations with Xante reps about this problem and they didn't want to talk about it. I have found alternate sources of both toner and drums and the price is a lot less than Xante charges. My volume of business right now doesn't justify investing in another digital printer.
I do have some literature from PSI and have talked briefly with a rep, but no decisions yet.
I did have one customer reject business cards I ran on the Ilimina because I couldn't get the color density dark enough but that's the only job I had a problem with.
I wish you a lot of luck.
 
What about letterhead? Don't customers sometimes ask for letterhead with their envelopes?

What can an all digital shop do for letterhead printing (that can be run through a laser printer.)
 
I print letterhead on my Ilumina. I have had only one problem. On the second run of LH (letterhead) I did for a customer they complained about streaking. I picked up the LH brought them back to my shop and sent them throught the Ilumina again with no issue....until I cranked up the heat. Remember, on the first order, they had no problems sending them through their machine. They were using an HP I think. I heard they run kinda hot. And I also heard that sometimes when fusers fail, they can get stuck on a tempature setting. So, they could have been running envelopes or cardstock and the fuser may have decided to fail...or they simply didn't change the setting before they printed on the LH. Since that one incident, I have not had any other problem. But then again, I simply don't do a whole lot of letterhead. Most of my customers have their own file or they ask me to set one up for them OR I send it out for lithography.

That concludes this episode of What a Digital Shop Does. We do it anyway! And if they don't like it we kick dirt at them and tell 'em "We can go to offset but you'll have to get 20,000 of them! Ha! Ha! Ha!"

(That last paragraph is a joke)

Keith
 
Keith said:
On the second run of LH (letterhead) I did for a customer they complained about streaking.
Click to expand...

Hi Keith, nice to meet up with you on PrintPlanet! Anyway, just so you know, that's not limited to digital. The same thing happened with letterheads that we printed by offset on our two-color Ryobi (when I still owned the print shop). Not just once, but a bunch of times. The problem disappeared when we told the customer to turn down the heat while imprinting.

There, aren't you glad you're working purely digital?! BTW, based on your post, I might have to revisit digital envelopes.

Hal
 
Hi Hal,

Was the streaking problem on offset on a 3302? Was it in the image or non image areas? If the latter, was it like toning bands across the cylinder direction? Older press, or fairly new? Was it worse on certain colors (violets, rhodamines, reflex)? Were you able to lick it? Did you try:

roller settings, especially removing any end play?
higher tack inks?
using alcohol instead of substitutes?
reducing excessive cylinder pressures?
other?

Thanks,

Al
 
Hi Al,

I probably should have been more specific. First, yes, the Ryobi was a 3302 equipped with Crestline dampening (great press and dampening system, BTW). On the other hand, the streaking manifested itself not during the initial run, but during the imprinting phase. When the letterheads left our shop, they were clean as a whistle. The imprinting was done by our customers. Back then, usually on high-speed Xerox copiers.

Invariably, the customers pushed us to deliver the job as soon as it came off the press. When told the ink needed to cure for a couple of days before the letterheads could be imprinted, they said, yeah right ... got it! Then ran it through the copier the next morning. And on the horn to us before noon. Printing is what printing is.

As for ink, we generally used oil-based Van Son. Where we knew the customer had a high-speed copier, we switched to heat-resisting inks on a case by case basis. With Reflex Blue, or anything resembling it, we reached for the heat-resisting stuff right off the bat.

Ah well. There are times when I miss the old shop. Other times, not so much!

Hal
 
RE: tired of brokering envelopes-is Xante the answer

I'm actually looking for a color envelope solution myself. I was considering a Xerox 8860 solid ink printer for heavier loads. The printer is more like an ink jet, but cold fuses the ink to the media thus not sealing the envelope. They configured a model with multiple trays, so I could print a few hundred at a shot. The challenge I've got, printing to the edge of a #10 envelope. I guess there's a 5MM margin, but to me it looks like a 15MM margin when using Print Shop Mail or Word Mail merge. I'm using the standard PostScript driver and have had no luck tricking the machine to do my bidding. Any one have this device that could recommend a work around? The machine prints envelopes great, but not to the edges.
 
Morning Flight said:
Hi Keith, nice to meet up with you on PrintPlanet! Anyway, just so you know, that's not limited to digital. The same thing happened with letterheads that we printed by offset on our two-color Ryobi (when I still owned the print shop). Not just once, but a bunch of times. The problem disappeared when we told the customer to turn down the heat while imprinting.

There, aren't you glad you're working purely digital?! BTW, based on your post, I might have to revisit digital envelopes.

Hal
Click to expand...

Hi Hal! Nice to see you hear! I need to make a stop the the Lounge here soon.

It is comforting to hear that offset is not invincible. Before I opened my all digital shop, I used to run a Ryobi 3200. I'm not always glad I'm all digital because I miss being able to run 5000 of something. It frustrates me everyday. No matter how i juggle the numbers, I don't have the volume for any offset equipment. I did look into the Riso HC5500, an inkjet sheetfed that prints at 120 ipm! And it can do envelopes too (I thought I'd mention that since this thread is about digital envelope printing). If you are considering an Ilumina, call George at-
Xante Laser Printers - Xante Color Printers - The Richardson Company

Keith

Oh wait- by "revisit digital envelopes" do you mean with estimating in Morning Flight?! That would be so damn awesome!!!!! I would love to be able to click on "envelopes" and then select "digital"!!!!!!!!
 
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Keith said:
... by "revisit digital envelopes" do you mean with estimating in Morning Flight?! That would be so damn awesome!!!!! I would love to be able to click on "envelopes" and then select "digital"!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...

Keith, haven't thought it through yet, but yeah, that's what I meant. Not that I'm running out of work or anything!

Hal
 
Intec vs Xanté vs PSI vs Press for envelope printing

Intec vs Xanté vs PSI vs Press for envelope printing

Intec Printers (establish in mid-2008 in partnership with Oki Europe) has developed another envelope solution to the market and I encourage you to research all the brand options available before making a purchase. In regards to the questions asked on this thread about the Xanté envelope model, I can only comment from my personal experience with the Xanté (where I previously worked for 8 years) and my evaluation of the PSI unit.

There are three basic differences between the development of our Intec envelope unit and the two already on the market:

1 - The Intec envelope unit will consist of a much smaller footprint and be at a lower price point. Both the Xanté and PSI units consist of large conveyer belt systems and bulky external items. The Intec input/output will be streamlined to account for shops where space is at a premium... especially in those shops where I have worked on equipment located in a hallways, tiny old darkrooms or even converted closets and baths!

2 - Intec will also offer more input/output options to customise the unit for your individual business needs (i.e., we will offer a envelope model that can be purchased with/without the Compose RIP option, customize with different input/output configurations, etc.).

3 - Since all three units use the same base engine–the speed, quality and media specifications are virtually the same–but upon closer inspection, the Intec CP2020 already supports lower media weights than the Xanté Ilumina and has the ability to print on a wider range of medias (i.e., NCR and polyester plates).

Additionally, Intec does not make physical modifications inside the base engine that can ultimately alter your print quality or have an effect on product reliability. Of course, I will not claim that the Intec will print perfectly on every type of media, but we will do what we can to help you find the right product for your application–even if it is not ours.

Good luck in your search! - Ann
Intec Printers
 
The Xerox 700 supports running some envelopes and all of my customers have started running envelopes with very satisfactory results. I have heard of runs in the area of 5,000 at a crack. Be sure to talk with your Xerox rep about this to make certain you are completely aware of the ups and downs to running envelopes from a support standpoint to avoid being disappointed later. I agree that offset is still the most economical method for high-run envelope applications.
 
Padraig you mentioned an alternate source for toner and drums. I have the envelope from Xante and it is a real time saver and does great work. But like us all the cost of consumables is high. Where do you get your consumables?
 
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