Training

[disbellj]

Re: Training

I agree cr.

I went to college to get a degree in graphic arts technology. It took them a couple years to show me the menus in the Adobe programs. Then when I got to the color separation house, that's when I really started to learn about printing.

Basically, today college is a way to tell future bosses that you can show up on time, and that you can learn. That's about it. Pretty expensive for what you get if you ask me.

Don

 

[disbellj]

Re: Training

The problem I see G is that my boss doesn't know what I do. They don't know prepress. They are a small printer and I run the basically one-man department. I can do the work, but I've never been good at selling myself, and really don't want to have to. I feel my work speaks for itself. Problem is, if they get good prints, they just see it as doing your job, nothing more. If I excel, they just see good prints. Only if I make a mistake, then of course no positive feedback then. Training is not even mentioned, accounted for, or thought about in the least. Tight margins, uneducated-in-new-technology printer owners, etc. all make for a low wage even if you do good.

Don

 

[G_Town]

Re: Training

Don run!

I was in the same boat at my old company (at least they recognized they needed me on some level).

I get quarterly reviews now and a year end which resulted in a pay increase last year. If you go above and beyond some one says "good job".

At the old place in 20 years I never got either any kind praise (sure I got a kick in the pants if something went wrong) or any type of review.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is all places don't suck, just where I used to be and where you are now. If you'd like I can get you in touch with the headhunter who rescued me.

G.

 

[John W]

Re: Training

The reason they say you require a degree is that high school grads today can't spell, can't do arithmetic, can't formulate a plan, take interuption, re-schedule, nor observe and learn - all the things that are required today in Print. Co-ordinators need to be able to read and write simple but direct and concise instruction. It appears, _that_ core skill is only available from a university trained person.

As margins dwindle (when I had my pre-press business in 1980, we made ten points net after tax without any hard work), business will cut back anything that does not appear to affect the work; things such as perhaps, a receptionist, and training expenses etc (when I packed in my business in 1996, we were lucky to make 2-3 points net which meant if you screwed up one job in each quarter, you ended up with no margin at all; you just paid wages). Now it requires some other ploy to keep profits up; most opted for automation but then the machines produced ten times in one tenth the time and the market didn't grow by 1000%.

Wages may rise again but global competition and further technology may prevent it. I am not trying to be a pessimist just a realist.
John W

 

[chris_r]

Re: Training

> {quote:title=John W wrote:}{quote}
> The reason they say you require a degree is that high school grads today can't spell, can't do arithmetic, can't formulate a plan, take interuption, re-schedule, nor observe and learn - all the things that are required today in Print. Co-ordinators need to be able to read and write simple but direct and concise instruction. It appears, _that_ core skill is only available from a university trained person.
>
THAT is what you call "painting with a broad brush". naturally, prerequisites for me to hire someone would be arithmetic and the ability to learn. to say those skills are only apparent in university graduates is wildly inaccurate.

are you my old guidance counselor? ; )

cr

 

[G_Town]

Re: Training

Hehe

My kids can read and write just fine at their respective ages 8 and 10 actually they read above their grade levels.

They consistently get A's and B's and that's because we stay on top of them and their homework if you leave the schools to raise/educate your kid your screwed. I have no doubt they will leave High school with the ability to perform a job like mine (actually much better as i was a terrible student).

I go back to my "university trained" friends the Ball bearing salesperson and the out of work graphic designer.

Not saying that college isn't good or desirable but that for many people they have what they need to perform "out of the gate"

Finally my last hire before I left my old job was a 20 something kid (please let me call him a kid). Virtually no experience, tattooed like a sailor, no education beyond HS but he has kept the department running since I left because he posses the attributes I mentioned earlier.

 

[chris_r]

Re: Training

right on g_town. if my kids want to go to college and continue their studies, god bless them, i will help all the way. but there is no way in hell i will consider my kids a failure or a hopeless lost cause because they choose not to go to college, or can't afford college, or decide to go do something that may not require a college education. and i certainly wouldnt write off all high school graduates as not having "core skills" if they dont go.

cr

 

[John W]

Re: Training

Of course I am painting with a broad brush. But I am speaking of a trend that a government and print trade committee will state here in Canada soon and as an example, most of the older managers on that committee are under the mistaken impression that high school graduates hold the same basic and core skills that they, the managers, held coming out of their high school years.

I have often asked in spelling bees are held in grade school these days. The answer is nearly always, no; that would be to competitive. Give me a freggin break. What we need is some viscera in our youth and I'm not talking violence here but some damn moral fiber. Many kids have LMF (lack thereof).

Of course many other kids are fine; have been taught the right values and are encouraged properly by their parents (you guys are too sensitive and take what I am saying too personally) - but when you interview you must weed through somethin like eight to one to get someone that stands half a chance at taking the dept forward. So if that one on eight plans to make a great living, they often will not stay long or even commence their careers in print.

John

 

[chris_r]

Re: Training

while i dont disagree with a lot of what you are saying, but i dont for a minute believe that kids coming out of high school today are less intelligent or willing to work than i was, or generations before us were. this is an old argument that every generation has..."back when i was a kid we did this or didnt do that". i do agree that there is a fundemental lack of competition that bothers me. the whole "don't hurt anyones feelings", and "everyone is a winner" outlook definately does affect a persons motivation to excel to be the best. still, if i owned a company (i dont), or was in a position to make company-wide hiring decisions (im not), i would definately have a program in place that would encourage young high school graduates to start with our company, grow and learn, and be rewarded for hard work with opportunities. it is like a baseball team with a good farm system, build from within, and it will pay off in the long run. i would go to the local high schools and try to start an apprentice program, and have interns during the summer.

i am very sensitive about this subject, because i think it is hurtful to kids to hear talk like this from people saying that without college you are screwed, because i heard it all through school, and it is wrong.

cr

 

[G_Town]

Re: Training

Word

(see I can be hip)

;-)

 

[P-Rex]

Re: Training

I agree with Nicolas here. A good book will explain concepts more clearly than a training video could. I have used several sources in the past and have found these two to be particularly useful:

http://www.amazon.com/Exploring-Dig...1563636?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1194144963&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Graphic-Print-Production/dp/0471761389/ref=pd_sim_b_img_1

 

[C2C]

Re: Training

Training Wise I have heard: PrepressTraining.com is a good choice. I have looked into it myself and am considering taking a few courses to be more knowledgeable.




Some have stated a personal experience with Prepress....so....
* my personal experience with Prepress has come off to some as a 'whoa is me' complaint .. it is not intended to be. Please save the flaming and ranting, thank you *

I am a '20 something kid' (no tattoo's like a sailor tho, that made me laugh) who graduated from a College ' Graphic Arts Technology and Management ' course.

I was unable to find any work for about 3 years. It did not matter how many resumes I handed out, businesses large and small.. no one wanted someone right out of college. They have no experience other then the class room. So i took to working in a Grocery store for 8$ an hr for awhile.. did a good/fast job and got max wage for "part time" (30hrs a week approx) which was 13.10. ( the max full time wage is 19.80 an hr ) (80% benefits)

I heard of a opening in the co. Im with now, (a packaging co here in Canada, we run 24/7) from a family member who worked here (she retired, lucky her!) and got an interview after i dropped off a resume. The manager at the time really didn't know anything about what goes on in the Prepress Dept, but he knew sales and presses (he had done both prior)
They ended up hiring me on a contract position to see what i knew and if I would fit in and adapt. I thought this was fair. (Im still on contract almost 2 years later) I started at $15 an hr. Lower starting wage then anyone else who gets hired in the Prepress dept here, due to lack of exp. (ok fine no problem)

Ive been here a year and a bit now, and have proven myself adept at learning new tasks and adapting to the issues that arise and my mistake ratio is extremely low considering im raw to Prepress (only 1 job, approx 10k cartons, not sheets, wasted *whoops* ) and yet was still placed back on contract for another year (till July 08) and given a $1 raise (generous they told me... as raises consist only of: Cost of Living *3%* in this co per year)
(3% of $15 is 45cents) (so in order to break 20$ an hr ill have to be working here for the next 6 years approx.) (this was a shocker to me. I guess I was nieve to expect something decent)

There is some hope tho, the co. just purchased another, so I have a solid feeling come July 08 I will be offered a FT position.. if not, then its time to go back to school, I dont think yet another year of contract is going to get me anywhere.. I would feel stuck in the same loop. ( less $ then others here, no benefits what-so-ever, rotating shift work...)

Do I like it? Its ok. I think id rather be stocking shelves for 19$ an hr with benefits.. but we all make choices
Would I advise anyone else to go into Prepress? No. * I can only base this off my sole experience tho*

The wait is too long, the pay is not enough to start a family, buy a home, or even get married and still be ok $ wise.
Ill be in my early 30's before i ever make 40k a year ( a wage i consider a modest income)
And the learning curve is steep. Coming from digital to film and not the other way around I see has hurt me.

It would have been much more beneficial to learn film prior to all the digital aspects, which i find funny, considering when I was hired on they had just made the jump into CTP and wanted to be more digital then film in the upcoming year (s).. But I will still told by HR and Bosses a year later that because I had no to little film exp. or exp in general in a Prepress Dept other then here................ that I was still learning and they needed to keep me on contract longer and I was indeed not worth more then what they offered (tho they said it much more sweetly..)

Just thought id toss in my personal experience with Prepress.
Its seems to be a high rate, fast paced, learn it in a hr so we can go to press sorta deal.. too much demand and not enough reward verbally and financial

-C2C-

Edited by: C2C on Dec 13, 2007 3:58 AM

 

[afilson]

Re: Training

Ok I can't take it anymore, I have to jump in...

I did not go to school for Graphic design, prepress, printing, or anything related to the printing industry. True, I do have a background in electrical engineering (military not college), but to be honest, I do not feel that has had any impact in my now 17years working in the printing industry.

I think this argument is simple,there are two types of people in every company; you are either part of the problem or part of the solution. This is a conscious decision that you as an individual makes everyday on your way to work.

When I was 15 a former VP at my fathers company told me "no matter what you do in life, strive to be the best you can possibly be at it and you will always succeed". Words I have chosen to live by.

If you are waiting for your company to just drop by and notice you and start shelling out raises like candy, good luck with that. Strive to be the very best at your job, do it better, faster and with better quality than the next guy. Look for constant ways to improve what it is you do. Show your company how they can save time, money, or effort by changing a best practice here or there. Constantly look for improvement when your colleagues are on smoke break.

You do NOT need college to get ahead (although it can help). It boils down to attitude. Strive to be better at what you do, strive to inspire those around you to be better at what they do, and look for improvement at every turn. The company will notice this effort, if not there is always another down the road looking for hard working people.

Companies do not hold people back. People hold themselves back by waiting for someone else to do something. Take charge of your own life and stop waiting on others. Strive to be the best you can possibly be, in printing, prepress, or whatever you do; that is the model for success.

Some of us have a better head start than others that is for sure, but everyone can succeed with the right attitude.

Just my two cents...

Allen

 

[C2C]

Re: Training

"You do NOT need college to get ahead (although it can help). It boils down to attitude. Strive to be better at what you do, strive to inspire those around you to be better at what they do, and look for improvement at every turn. The company will notice this effort, if not there is always another down the road looking for hard working people.

Companies do not hold people back. People hold themselves back by waiting for someone else to do something. Take charge of your own life and stop waiting on others. Strive to be the best you can possibly be, in printing, prepress, or whatever you do; that is the model for success.

Some of us have a better head start than others that is for sure, but everyone can succeed with the right attitude. [End Quote]

Id have to agree.
Attitude and Drive. It counts for almost anything one does in life.

College, I think either College or University is now manditory to get your foot in the door... to be allowed in the building ..like it or not
Even IF the position really does not req. one to have a college or uni education, the one who applies and does vs the one who doesnt usually , gets the spot

I also have to agree that some are better off then others. Some, this stuff comes naturally while others struggle. (im a struggler at times )

but that VP was right. solid words.

If you are waiting for your company to just drop by and notice you and start shelling out raises like candy, good luck with that. Strive to be the very best at your job, do it better, faster and with better quality than the next guy. Look for constant ways to improve what it is you do. Show your company how they can save time, money, or effort by changing a best practice here or there. Constantly look for improvement when your colleagues are on smoke break [end quote]

Some people do those things and you can watch them do so and then watch the boss eat up the credit. Its gotta suck !!!

My discussion on my personal income was to reflect how people like myself who come out of college, being told a 89% * i believe* job placement rate at a yearly wage of 40k a year. *to start* believe them and take the courses and graduate ... and then find out what a crock of sh*t it is. Out of a class of 40. 12 dropped out mid way and out of 28 grads only 3 ever got a job in Prepress or Printing ect. The rest work at Starbucks, Grocery stores, ect.. or went back to school for something else after a year or two of not being hired

Certainly it was not intended to come across as a gimmie $ now ..god i wish it worked like that tho hey boss spot me 20k ?

Point was its hard to start a life in Prepress.

 

[chris_r]

Re: Training

give me a person with a lot of work ethic and desire to learn. a person like that can be quickly taught our workflow. i would find it difficult and frustrating to work with someone who knows all the ins and outs of the software apps but can't get motivated to improve and learn the big picture about what our printing company does.

just to clarify...my stance is not that a college education is worthless. of course it isn't. all i am saying is that there are a lot of young people out there who don't have a college education that can still come in and do a great job if given the chance, and that it can be a win-win situation for a company and the kids to reach out to the high schools and tried to tap into them and get them interested in starting a career, and give these kids a start. if you treat these kids fairly (and it sounds like some people fell they haven't been, which is unfortunate) with opportunity and a consistent schedule of increases, a company and the individual can reap long-term rewards.

cr

 

[Bluefist]

Re: Training

Hi everyone.

This has been a phenomenal thread.

Hats off to many of the vets who have expressed their views.

I concur that the business (& your place in it) is what you make it/put into it.

I'm going on 15 years myself, no regrets.

+*back to lurking*+

 

[G_Town]

Re: Training

Negativity is also a bad, I've seen good people go down the tubes because they had a crappy attitude, I know you can't go through your life with a big crap eating grin on your face but working on a positive attitude is important.

Who you going to hire the mopey guy with the excellent resume or the guy with not a whole lot of experience but is enthusiastic about the prospect of working at your company? (I usually went for the one with the enthusiasm).


My Tony Robbins 2¢

 

[Debbie Goodman]

Re: Training

P-Rex,
Just to clarify, Prepress Training Solution does not offer videos. While training is online and there is narration, the learner actually clicks on files and menus in a software simulator... learn by doing.
Debbie

 

[disbellj]

Re: Training

I'm speaking from what I learned in school too. They started this way of teaching back when I was in school. Learning the three R's wasn't the main things to teach. These days, actual education is fighting for a place, since political correctness seems to be what most seem to care more about (don't want to offend that small minority, so let's offend the majority and teach them things parents don't want their children to be taught). The school system in the U.S. has many problems. The first and main one is that they think that they know better than parents about what children should be taught. And the paperwork shows they really do think that way, because they can't have parents teaching none of that religious stuff only us nuts believe in <sarcasm>. Up with Humanism, down with Christianity (like I said, check out the Humanist Manifesto I, II, and III to see for yourself how far the whole plan has come unfortunately, but truthfully). I agree with the previous poster who said children must be taught some things at home, and we can't let those things be taught at school because frankly they don't teach at school the morals and ethics I and many others want our children to possess.

I'm a hard worker because both my mom and dad were examples of diligence, a good hard work ethic, and taking pride in the job they did. I have morals because my mom and dad taught me and also were examples, and I saw that they were right (even though I questioned everything once knowing my parents faults, but came back to knowing they were right years later after much research, etc.). School didn't and can't teach these things. Why? Because every child is just another number in the system. You have to truly care of the outcome of the child's life to make a positive difference, and parents and family naturally have these qualities that a paid-for-hire is not going to have. If it wasn't for the good teachers (good caring people) that do really care about their students, school would be a total waste these days IMO. There's only a handful of useful things I consider I learned in school, and most of them were learned in kindergarten (e.g. If you made it dirty, clean it up. Be respectful, etc.)

When the kids of the U.S. see what the last generations have left them with to look forward to, don't be surprised that they are rebellious. Our grandkids will pay much higher taxes than we do. And for what? All the great service we get from our government? No. Because of the debt that has been laid on us and our children, and their children for generations to come (to the current tune of $30,204.11. owed per U.S. citizen, from http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/). This was put into action on purpose before my dad was even born (and before my grandpa was born this was already in action - he lived though the Great Depression that was orchestrated). I wish it really was free trade, and a free society, but really, is it? If you're part of the top 5% rich maybe. Otherwise, you're just another cog in the wheel.

Am I pessimistic? Well, given that:
1. Our government has the responsibility to coin money and gave up their responsibility to a foreign-owned private company (Federal Reserve)
2. We each (U.S. citizens) owe more than we can pay back (it's mathematically impossible on purpose, just like a credit card company wants you to pay interest for the rest of your life)
3. Are only paying the interest on the debt, knowing the American people are being lied to and have been for a very long time, and that we are pawns in these people's hands (Federal Reserve who is not Federal but a private company of mostly foreign owners, and not a Reserve given that they've swindled us out of the gold that once backed the dollar and that gold is no longer in the U.S., so we're using paper money that is not worth the paper it's printed on.
4. Are taught things that would make our Founding Fathers turn over in their graves, taking away our freedoms one by one. Remember, our Foundng Fathers went to war "No taxation without representation". Are you being represented?
5. Will not give up their various failed wars that dig us deeper into debt and do more harm to individuals and families than what they claim to be fighting (war on drugs, war on poverty, etc.)

... yeah I'm a little upset. I guess I take it too personal? Guess I shouldn't cause it has nothing to do with me right? <sarcasm>

Don

 

[G_Town]

Re: Training

P-Rex,
Just to clarify, Prepress Training Solution does not offer videos. While training is online and there is narration, the learner actually clicks on files and menus in a software simulator... learn by doing.
Debbie


I have used this in the past as well, interactive pretty cool.