What's happening with G7 Master printers

[gordo]

True. The gray patch in this scenario would indicate an imbalance, and assuming there is no yellow imagery on the form, the adjustment may be unnecessary. However, you're omitting the potential benefit of an efficient control element to guage the current inking conditions in relation to the target established during calibration. Regardless of what imagery on the form, it would be beneficial to have a consistent starting point on a press run if imagery is based on the same conditions.

Just a comment. We proof toward Gracolcoated and print with FM (20 micron HDS) with an excellent proof/press match on the majority of imagery...possible exceptions to some pastel tones.

RE: "you're omitting the potential benefit of an efficient control element to guage the current inking conditions in relation to the target established during calibration."

Problem is that I don't believe that the 3/C grey balance target in the color bar is an efficient control element. And I haven't seen any published tests that demonstrate that it is. There are many reasons why it is not, that it can be misleading, that it does not reliably indicate what is happening in the live image area, etc. For a long time in the world's history believing that the world was flat and that the sun revolved around the earth was well accepted truth. And for day to day activities thinking that way worked and it did not matter that these ideas were wrong. I'm just asking that such a basic tenet that this industry holds so dearly be tested for veracity. It would be even better if the industry looked at the problem and, given today's technology, came up with a modern solution rather than simply continuing on with a 19th century methodology. That being said, if the 19th century technology is proven, by objective testing, to be valid and the most effective tool, well then I'm all for it.

RE: "We proof toward Gracolcoated and print with FM (20 micron HDS) with an excellent proof/press match on the majority of imagery...possible exceptions to some pastel tones."

You cannot match 1 and two color screen tint builds with 20 micron FM and 175 lpi AM. The gamuts are too different. That is a fact. To get a match your AM would have to be run at least 300+ lpi. That being said, with typical contone images where there is a mix of C,M, and Y I agree you probably won't see a difference. So, depending on the content of the imagery the disconnect between AM and FM screening may, or may not, be an issue. But you already know that.

best, gordon p

 

[Bret Hesler]

Just a comment. We proof toward Gracolcoated and print with FM (20 micron HDS) with an excellent proof/press match on the majority of imagery...possible exceptions to some pastel tones.

Agreed. I did not mean to say that it is useless for FM, but it cannot compensate for the hue shift in lighter tones. We, too, got a good match overall, just not as good as AM screening in pastel colors.

Bret

 

[meddington]

I'm just asking that such a basic tenet that this industry holds so dearly be tested for veracity. It would be even better if the industry looked at the problem and, given today's technology, came up with a modern solution rather than simply continuing on with a 19th century methodology. That being said, if the 19th century technology is proven, by objective testing, to be valid and the most effective tool, well then I'm all for it.

I would like to argue your points more Gordo, but I'm afraid you've convinced me. Its still my opinion that a 3/c gray patch has merit, but it is certainly not too much to ask for objective testing proving this. There are other industries (medical comes to my mind) where common tenets are held firm despite a complete lack of objective studies of efficacy, yet we dare not question lest we are ostracized, and that really grinds my.... calm down mike.....think of Daffodils and bunny rabbits. Good news is that no one has has died as the result of using gray balance control elements...to my knowledge...though you may want to check with your physician. In any event, to convince a skeptic such as your self, objective tests would ideally need to be conducted by someone without bias or a vested interest in the results.

 

[Jackie]

Thanks

Thanks

I'd just like to thank you gentlemen for your lively discussion. As someone who is just about to embark on G7 Certification I'm finding the whole thing very informative and quite entertaining.

Enjoy the weekend and the Bunnies and the daffodils.

Jackie

 

[gordo]

I would like to argue your points more Gordo, but I'm afraid you've convinced me. [SNIP] Good news is that no one has has died as the result of using gray balance control elements...to my knowledge...though you may want to check with your physician.

I thought this might be the best way to answer your comments ;-))

best, gordo

 

[meddington]

Egad! I'd like to think that as a society, we are so much smarter than that now. I'd like to, but...

 

[QualityPrint]

All this talk about "acceptable" matches between proof and press has me curious... Is anyone willing to send me an sample of their match? (A press sheet and proof) The match we get is fair but I would like to think it can be much better. If you are let me know and i'll send you my shipping ID. Some peers think that we have to settle with what we have but I would like to prove that a better match is doable.
JP