Which is the best brand around thermal CTP in Latin America

[mcallister]

Hi.

Nowadates we are requesting information about CTP machines and brands, in order to plan a new business unit in our corporation. We wanna offer this service for offset press in big formats (not newspapers, I mean, Solna, Adast for commercial purposes)... so we want to know which nowadates is the best brand, considering post-sale support, warranties, etc... We always mention AGFA Heidelberg, Screen, Kodak, but I think this is the moment to know from you EXPERTS, what is the final answer.

Thanks in advance.

 

[maxon]

You need to better define 'best'. There's a large number of criteria. You have to build a list with features, pros and cons and ultimately take a decision. You will also find that visiting existing customers, learning from other users of a particular type of equipment and asking dealers for demos and trials will lead you to conclusions you can trust more than bits of info from a forum even if some users here are indeed trustworthy and knowledgeable.

Any particular reason why thermal ? Just asking.

 

[mcallister]

Hi maxon.

Thanks for your attention on this reply. Around my question I was looking for testimonials and also use cases from people who works in that CTP world. But according to you, can you recommend me which criterias I must consider? First, I'm searching CTP machines for commercial use, the size of the plates must be 70x100 approximately (yes, maybe I'm dreaming ). And according to your request, in my country other vendors recommend thermal because they don't consume chemical, and the prices for maintenance is lower...

Finally, if my you can help me now... why do I have choose AGFA, or Heidelberg or KODAK.? I insist on this question because I want to know opinion outside my country, and may you have worked with one of them? Please I would appreciate any kind of comments.

Thanks again!

 

[maxon]

can you recommend me which criterias I must consider?

Perhaps you should seek advice from an independent consultant. If you can't find one, start looking around for plate types available in your area, pricing, availability. How many plates do you have run daily. What local dealers do you have there and what kind of service and support can they provide. Very important. And put an year estimate for support including laser replacement costs and prev. maintenance which may be expensive for certain machines. [/QUOTE]

... commercial use, the size of the plates must be 70x100 approximately (yes, maybe I'm dreaming)

Sorry I don't understand. Do you intend to buy an oversized ctp although you don't have a suitable B1 offset machine ? You plan to move to B1 later ?

...in my country other vendors recommend thermal because they don't consume chemical, and the prices for maintenance is lower

Have they said that, really. Ask each of them for price quotations on maintenance. You can choose between conventional chemistry plates, chemistry free plates and processless, there are lots of technologies out there to choose from. Good luck.

Finally ... why do I have choose AGFA, or Heidelberg or KODAK.?

I don't know why. Why do you have to choose Agfa or Heidelberg or Kodak ?

 

[mcallister]

1. Yes, in the next years we want to pass to a B1 offset machine seriously, but because we are planning to open as a new service this CTP support, we are thinking on make two pieces from a 70x100cm plate, so in that way we culd get the two pieces with the right sizes for our Sormz, Adast and Solna.

2. Happy news! today we went with the manager to a local vendor who explains us carefully about pros and cons of both technologies. First, we understood that violet CTP is faster than thermical CTP. Second, cost of violet CTP's are expensive than plates for thermical CTP. Third, in a short time the thermical CTP will require a lot of maintenance per six months o two months, in comparison with the violet CTP, which not demand a lot of resources for its maintenance.

3. This vendor explained us that Heidelberg and AGFA or Fujifilm use the same SCREEN technology. But in the case of SCREEN, because this brand cannot sell in EUROPE as SCREEN, they offer their technology to AGFA or FUJIFILM. In other words, SCREEN nowadates is the standard thermical CTO technology offered by AGFA or Heidelberg.

4. Because we have three B2 offset machines, our core is to print for commercial uses, we want to maintain our level of costs to the normal curve, but we are thinking that with the thermical CTP estimating possible maintenance for the next two years, this could be dramatically dangerous. In contrast, the lis of costs demanded by violet CTP is quiet lower, but their expensive plates would leave us out of any competition because 72% of CTP vendors, offer this service acquiring plates with the 50% less of their original price. So this is the scope for us.

5. The main question is... which scenario is more posible? that AGFA or Heildeberg or SCREEN thermical CTP technicians reduce the price for maintenance? or maybe that prices for violet CTP machines tends to decrease?....

How do u feel about this information maxon? Is that right? And also let me ask you if may in Europe or Asia tha violet CTP's are using another alternatives of CTP plates, with lower prices than in America?

Thanks man!

 

[maxon]

mcallister,

Of course there are very fast - and expensive - thermal machines in the market, but in general violet offers higher speed in the same price category. Plate price and availability must be in the top of your list. Choose thermal or violet based on this important fact and don't overlook other criteria. I happen to know a lot of things about both technologies. I myself prefer violet ECRM Mako ctps and highly recommend them. Regarding plates you probably have local Agfa, Kodak and Fuji dealers, you have IBF there etc. Look around. In Europe thermal and violet photopolymer plates have more or less similar prices. Maintenance for thermal machines tends to be more expensive compared to violet ctps, look at the price of laser replacement too. Look for hidden costs and do not necessarily follow every advice or comment - ask for hard evidence ink on paper and visit other ctp users. As a general rule, complex machinery autoloaders and/or drum platesetters will require more service visits than flatbeds, regardless thermal or violet. The more complex a piece of machinery, the more failure points. You have to add all these costs in 12 months time.

This vendor explained us that Heidelberg and AGFA or Fujifilm use the same SCREEN technology. But in the case of SCREEN, because this brand cannot sell in EUROPE as SCREEN, they offer their technology to AGFA or FUJIFILM

Not true. Dainippon Screen does sell ctps under its own brand in Europe and elsewhere. Yes, other manufacturers do have OEM agreements with Screen. Some models are not simply rebadged, re-labeled machines although they may look similar inside.

... thermical CTP technicians reduce the price for maintenance

I guess maintenance costs are set by the equipment itself and machine hardware requirements rather than service profits and labor costs.
I don't understand your last question about other alternatives, do you mean plate manufacturers or what ?

 

[mcallister]

Hi.

Thanks for your answer. In fact, I was asking you about the plate manufactures which could compete with Fujifilm, in terms to offer lower prices for the plates compatible with Fujifilm CTP series.

 

[Alois Senefelder]

C t P Technology

C t P Technology

Hello mcallister,

In your pursuit for the perfect C t P Imaged Plate, you should remember on Press Performance which is fundamental to the selling of printed sheets of paper!


A PDF - "Comparison of C t P Technologies"


Regards, Alois

 

[marktonk]

Hello mcallister,

See my response to your quotes below.

2. Happy news! today we went with the manager to a local vendor who explains us carefully about pros and cons of both technologies. First, we understood that violet CTP is faster than thermical CTP. Second, cost of violet CTP's are expensive than plates for thermical CTP. Third, in a short time the thermical CTP will require a lot of maintenance per six months o two months, in comparison with the violet CTP, which not demand a lot of resources for its maintenance.

There are very fast thermal machines in the commercial market. If you were in the newspaper market, violet would still have a speed edge.

You probably need to compare more then just laser type. Take into consideration that not all CtP are created equal. As an example, some thermal lasers are on when the CtP is on and they are degrading even though they are not imaging. The violet laser is only on when imaging and the same for some thermal lasers. What is the laser spot size and what is the highest screen ruling it can generate? You may not go over 200 line but a large laser spot will have difficulty in imaging fine detail such as a slur target. Or if your clients require higher screen rulings or FM. Some CtP lasers have autofocus or a deep depth of focus, some do not. This helps reduce /eliminate hot spots from dust or plate imperfections. Some CtP have a narrow environmental range and some have a wide. Some CtP have a Temperature Compensation, most do not. Some offer robust automation, some have less robust or none at all. Some offer internal punching, some do not offer internal punching, internal is more accurate. You also have to take into consideration how many plates are certified on a CtP.

3. This vendor explained us that Heidelberg and AGFA or Fujifilm use the same SCREEN technology. But in the case of SCREEN, because this brand cannot sell in EUROPE as SCREEN, they offer their technology to AGFA or FUJIFILM. In other words, SCREEN nowadates is the standard thermical CTO technology offered by AGFA or Heidelberg.

Your vendor is incorrect, the Suprasetter is designed and manufactured by Heidelberg in Wiesloch, Germany, it is not a Screen device/technology.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Mark

 

[mcallister]

Hey guys!

Wow! This thread is so productive, and this is because of your attention!! Thanks again!

1. Tht equipment we would like is just the core CTP.NO autoloaders. Of course we want the other component which adds the rubber to the plate -in the violet CTP- (do you know the name of this component-revelador de goma?)

2. Tell me more or provide me (if it's possible) the prices of this ECRM Mako ctp's, and about high realiable information... I must thank you for this lessons, for me I'm seriously assuming this new deal, and unfortunatelly in our primary market information is so hidden.

4. Mr. Senefelder, I do rely on my offset equipment, SORMZ, ADAST and SOLNA are always my soldiers!! . But in fact, this is true, but in my case we are looking for a CTP B1, which could let us to get two plates 50x70 for our business, this may help us to reduce costs...

3. Do you know another european vendor which sells violet CTP plates to south america? Maybe with this way, we can reduce a bit the costs.

4. And guys, I mentioned that we have a press industry company for commercial purposes.

5. Mr Marktonk, I know but I work in commercial press industry, not in newspapers industry .

6. [Mr Tonkovich] I'm agree with you about this list of considerations on technical issues, but in conclussion... a violet CTP contains less electronic parts than thermal CTP. And I think is more secure update or maintain in appropiate way a violet than a thermal CTP. Also keep in mind that the majority of thermal CTP vendors (well, here in Peru) retains a good percentage of the market, and still live in this business because the high prices of their supplies.

 

[JoeatData]

Each CTP's have their pluses and minuses. It's hard to say which one is better than the other.
Identify your needs and usage with each product....well, it seems that's what your are as of now.

I have been with 3 different company's that were/are CTP. Currently with a company that uses the Screen CTP. We have had this CTP for about 8 years now. Limited amount of problems and the service has been good. The other company's used Basys CTP which is a convention UV plate technology. We were constantly adjusting and debating plate exposures, along with an expensive service contract and Colbalt which was a ground level(some called it a toy) CTP with a UV laser which seemed blow up every 2-3 months. But that was before they increased the wattage to the laser.

The advice I can give is looking into the warranties and service contracts that each CTP offers. Know/learn the long term of the CTP product that you are going to select.

 

[Equintana]

Mr. Mcallister

If you want to have more information about CtP technologies directly in your country, could you send us an email out this forum to [email protected]

Regards

Edgar Quintana

 

[PeterW]

Hello McAllister,
"Revelador de goma" is callled gumming unit. Sometimes it is integrated in a plate processor.
As far as I know the brand names thate are popular in Perú are Agfa, Screen and Heidelberg. You should have no problem getting technical service for these CtP.
Another question is whether you are planning to buy new or second hand CtP system which generally will be less expensive.
If you need any further help please contact me via Private Message (en caso que prefieras hablar español, no hay ningun problema).

Here are several important factors to consider when buying a CtP system.

1. Size of plates: make sure that the CtP that you choose covers all the plate seize range that you have (from the smallest to the largest size)

2. Plate availability: make sure that the CtP plates are available form a local supplier.

3. Speed: try to choose a CtP that will make as many plates per hour as you need in your busiest production period (or even more, as speed varies depending on the plate brand and the type of job that you are printing)

4. Condition of the equipment: it is best to buy a system that is complete and guaranteed to work in your printshop (i.e. from a reputable dealer that offers warranty and installation). You can always ask to see the equipment in operation and examine the plates that the seller prints on your request. Beware of buying systems that are not in production for long time or are incomplete (no software, no dongles, etc.), as it may cost a lot of money to buy all the necessary items that are missing.
Beware if buying obsolete technologies i.e. CtP for green plates (Agfa Antares, CSI PlateJet), or CtP for silver based violet plates (older models of Agfa Galileo, Paladio, Heidelber Prosetter), as you may have problems with buying the plates and chemistry.

5. Installation: all CtP systems need professional graphic arts engineer trained in the particular CtP model to install it properly. Ask the seller if he can help you with the installation.

6. Technical service: consider who will service your equipment once it is installed. It is good to have local support for your system. I.e. if there are Creo engineers in your country, buy Creo CtP rather than Agfa etc.

7. Brand name: in my opinion it is best to buy a CtP model that is very popular on the market, as it guarantees easy access to technical service and parts when you need it in the future. Right now the most popular models seem to be following:
Creo: Trendsetter, Lotem
Screen: PlateRite
Heidelberg: Suprasetter, Topsetter
Kodak: Magnus

 

[leo]

Mr Mcallister: how much price per sqm for violet plate you are looking forward to purchase?
One very important thing is how much sqm per year you can buy?

 

[Gustavo Yanco]

Hello mcallister I don't know if you can expose two plates at once. It is surely an option and not in every brand. I had an agfa avalon n4 with azura plates. Terrific system but your presses might need some adjustments to achieve the best results. Thermal or violet depends on your plate provider. In my country chinese plates cost less than u$s 9 with free chems, azura or other agfa, fuji or kodak between 10 to 12 per sq m. That is the number you have to carefully check if you use 500 sq m. Monthly savings can be huge and compensate the maintenance costs. Saludos desde argentina