Xerox 1000 v Konica Bizhub C8000

[docutech]

Guys

Big tender decision to make here soon on the above .

Cost wise Xerox more expensive but probably negotiable

Service wise strong and happy Xerox customer but minimal experience of Danwood (Konica's dealers here)

Upgrading from Xerox 60-60 device current volumes 75,000 a month but looking to expand good potential market available.

Have seen both devices in demo's both impressive, but being a long term Xerox user I am reluctant to jump ship but the costs are hard to argue against.

Can you advise on the negatives of the C8000....or if your impressed why perhaps I should take a bold step and leave my xeroid comfort zone

All thoughts welcomed and appreciated

Regards

Docy

 

[overscan]

Having tested both the xerox 1000 and the km8000 I would say that the xerox is a much more versatile beast. The km would not print on our textured stock, was more fussy about duplexing stock than even the km6000 which we also tested. Also the km8000 that we demoed was making the print on heavyweight stock look as glossy as an old oil based xerox.

Having said all that from the quotes that we received the km8000 was less than half the price of a xerox 1000. If you do go the km8000 route make sure you get a competitive quote from another dealer (you could try Balreed). We had quotes from km and danwood. Danwood seemed competitve, but only because km quoted a crazily high figure.

With regard to leaving xerox and moving to pastures new, I can't comment on danwood but we moved from a xerox dc260 to a km5501 (through balreed) and have never looked back. Balreed have excellent and not so excellent engineers (same as xerox). Callout for us is similar. One thing that does differ is that when we do have problems that aren't addressed, speaking to our rep does actually get things done.

BTW is there any reason that you're not looking at the xerox 800?

 

[docutech]

Thanks for the quick response overscan.

We have been fortunate to have been a 'showcase' site for Xerox over many years so I'm used to some very good servicing which I'm reluctant to leave behind on such an important migration up.

Xerox believe the 800 is not the device to take us up to the next level as its older technology and does not radically bar speed improve on the 60-60. I also have a significant requirement for an integrated / trim booklet maker, which again I believe is not available with the 800 (unless a very expensive extra is added)

The stock duplex issue is one of things I'm looking at as there seems to be a difference in ability here, plus I need greater clarrification of the mentioned booklet maker options i.e square back finish or not.

Our tender process does not allow the inclusion of another, though again and maybe its habit I'm sceptical of using 3rd party supplies, as big as Danwood are they are still not the machines manufacturer etc, which doesn't sit right with me.

I have a site visit to see the 8000 this week as speaking to the operators usually provides more answers etc.....we'll see

regards

 

[Keness]

Xerox believe the 800 is not the device to take us up to the next level as its older technology and does not radically bar speed improve on the 60-60. I also have a significant requirement for an integrated / trim booklet maker, which again I believe is not available with the 800 (unless a very expensive extra is added)

That comment doesn't make any sense, unless maybe they were talking about the older DocuColor 8000 or 8002 and perhaps you misunderstood?

The Xerox 800 and 1000 are the SAME MACHINE... Same supplies, same accessories, same finishing options, same RIPs, same everything. Only difference is 20ppm. And cost, of course.

And at 80ppm, it would be a closer comparison to the Konica C8000. If the 80ppm Konica can take you to the next level, there is no reason the 80ppm Xerox 800 can't too.

You'd have to decide which one is best for you for yourself of course, but as far as cost differences go, it doesn't need to be as steep of a difference between the 80ppm Konica and the 100ppm Xerox when there is an identical 80ppm Xerox option available. I do believe the Xerox 800 will still be more expensive, but not by as much.

 

[docutech]

Sorry working too hard ! yes I was thinking 8000 as an alternative to the 1000.

The 800 would have been fine but Xerox have offered the 1000 at the same price minus the fifth toner ability.

Like you say I would imagine the 800 would be cheaper so we'll see if they drop an engine size, on the otherhand it makes the 1000 look very good value.

My decision would be to stay with Xerox, but its the budget holders I need a plausible arguement for.

 

[Keness]

If they can go down that much on the 1000, they can surely go down on the 800, too. Play hardball. With lead-filled balls. Sales people are always playing games with us... They deserve it.

If you point out that it is up against the much cheaper C8000 from Konica, they'll probably jump. If they're smart they would, anyway. It's pretty clear they were trying to talk you UP to the 1000 by making it look like a deal compared to the un-discounted 800, but there just isn't any way for a 100ppm machine like to 1000 to compete against the C8000 on price. Even the 800 is going to be a good bit more than the C8000, but at least it would be closer. They should allow an apples-to-apples (on ppm speed, anyway) comparison by giving you just as lucrative a deal on an 800.

Nothing gets my blood boiling more than blatant sales tactics. In fact, it is the main reason I purchase my equipment on installment plans rather than leases, and why I do 100% of my own service. That way I don't have to deal with sales people when it comes to a lease and a click rate, and I don't have to deal with techs blaming the paper before they've even gotten all the way through my door on a service call.

I am lucky in that I am able to do that because I am mechanically inclined and I know my machines inside and out. Most people wouldn't even want to deal with it. But it is nice to be back up and running within 20-30 minutes when something happens because I can deal with it myself!

It does make me somewhat more tied to Xerox than most, since only SOME of the knowledge I've accumulated over the last I-don't-want-to-think-about-it years would transfer to a different manufacturer. The concepts and troubleshooting would be the same, of course, but I'm still just so much more familiar with Xerox machines. (Fuji Xerox, specifically, since I only deal with the color line.)

I'd probably be in the same boat as you re the 8000... It's still a great machine, but it is a smidge dated. (The 8002 is newer, but basically the same thing. And there have been some horror stories on here about the 7002/8002. Of course, read long enough and there will be horror stories about every single make and model! haha) Plus, in my case, I do so much perfect binding work I just don't want to deal with oil.

 

[stueey]

Xerox to Konica/Balreed

Xerox to Konica/Balreed

Having tested both the xerox 1000 and the km8000 I would say that the xerox is a much more versatile beast. The km would not print on our textured stock, was more fussy about duplexing stock than even the km6000 which we also tested. Also the km8000 that we demoed was making the print on heavyweight stock look as glossy as an old oil based xerox.

Having said all that from the quotes that we received the km8000 was less than half the price of a xerox 1000. If you do go the km8000 route make sure you get a competitive quote from another dealer (you could try Balreed). We had quotes from km and danwood. Danwood seemed competitve, but only because km quoted a crazily high figure.

With regard to leaving xerox and moving to pastures new, I can't comment on danwood but we moved from a xerox dc260 to a km5501 (through balreed) and have never looked back. Balreed have excellent and not so excellent engineers (same as xerox). Callout for us is similar. One thing that does differ is that when we do have problems that aren't addressed, speaking to our rep does actually get things done.

BTW is there any reason that you're not looking at the xerox 800?

I did exactly the same and Balreed have been excellent and my Konica has helped my business no end, my 5501 is amazing for it's price range. I've not heard much said about the 8000 yet, apparently the models below it are performing really well but it sounds to me a bit like the 8000 (much newer technology) is having teething problems. I did read an awesome report about it yesterday though but it wasn't from an actual end user.

I can't recommend Balreed enough.

 

[Josh]

...In fact, it is the main reason I purchase my equipment on installment plans rather than leases, and why I do 100% of my own service. That way I don't have to deal with sales people when it comes to a lease and a click rate, and I don't have to deal with techs blaming the paper before they've even gotten all the way through my door on a service call.
....

Blimey! I'm impressed!

How does that work out on a practical basis? I.e ordering parts etc? And do you know how it works out cost wise on a per click basis?

What machine(s) is it you're running by the way?

J

 

[Keness]

Blimey! I'm impressed!

How does that work out on a practical basis? I.e ordering parts etc? And do you know how it works out cost wise on a per click basis?

What machine(s) is it you're running by the way?

Well, it only works because I enjoy it. If I didn't, I'm sure compared to calling in a service appointment (even when it takes a day or so to get back up and running) it would would be miserable.

As for parts, that's not such a problem. There are places to get what I need, like developer assemblies, 2nd BTR's, cleaning blades, etc. And even if I couldn't, there's always Xerox. They're prices are high, but considering I don't pay a click charge, I'm still money ahead even if I had to buy something like a laser unit which is quite spendy. (Knock on wood, I've never had to buy anything particularly rare or expensive yet. Just regular maintenance stuff.)

Since I buy my toner, there is no way to know exactly what it works out to on a click basis, since jobs of different coverage cost different amounts. But I am able to keep track enough to know I definitely pay less.

But again, I would never recommend self-maintaince to anyone unless they really enjoyed it, too. It's asking for trouble if you do it just to save money. There is something to be said for just making a call and someone coming in and making everything better, even if they don't do it QUITE as fast as you'd like.

 

[X33]

just announced today, the new Xerox DocuColor 8080.

Xerox DocuColor 8080 Adds Productivity, New Ink, Color Accuracy / Xerox Newsroom

you may want to ask your Xerox rep about it.

 

[Keness]

just announced today, the new Xerox DocuColor 8080.

you may want to ask your Xerox rep about it.

Any idea what the difference is between this new model and the 8002? Other than huge blue covers, that is.

 

[X33]

haven't heard much about it yet. I know it has a bunch of engineering improvements (developer, corotrons, etc), a new toner formulation and a lower price point.

 

[Keness]

haven't heard much about it yet. I know it has a bunch of engineering improvements (developer, corotrons, etc), a new toner formulation and a lower price point.

Well those are all certainly legitimate, potentially very interesting improvements...

So the new "new low gloss toner" is even newer than the old "new low gloss toner"? haha From reading here I gather there were some issues with color balance and whatnot. (Of course, from reading here, it is clear that every single machine made by every single manufacturer is pure garbage... *wink*) Anyway, perhaps the older 7002/8002 low gloss toner was the culprit.

Do you know if it still requires oil, or if the new toner is oil-free and they've redesigned the fuser to be dry? I'm kind of surprised they haven't released an EA version of the that particular engine, to be honest. A low gloss EA toner variant would be pretty slick... (Pardon the pun.)

 

[X33]

sorry, I'm on the same boat ... I don't know any further about the toner or fusing process.

 

[Keness]

Actually it looks like the toner is the same as the 7002/8002... The toner MSDS sheet has been updated to include all three models. 7002/8002/8080

While you can't look at two separate MSDS sheets and conclude two products are the same based on having the same ingredient list, when they have multiple machines referenced on the SAME MSDS sheet, that's a pretty sure indicator they're a match! haha

 

[docutech]

Thanks for the replies guys,

Xerox have now submitted an 800 device instead of the 1000 which has made a significant difference etc to the costings. There's still some negotiating going on and I'm expecting a new Konica quote .. we will see