Xerox 5000 AP help..

[LKent]

Hello. I'm in the process of making a move into buying a digital press. From what I read the DC5000AP can handle up to 300gsm, and also 14pt C2S in the gsm limits..

but when I asked the local sales rep if these can be handles he said only up to 12pt. This is critical to my purchasing decision because a bulk of our work is 4x6 postcards and I need to know what machine is best in the $100,000 and under price range to handle this.

Anyone have experience using a 5000ap with these specs? Hows the duplex printing doing this? I found 14pt paper at around 290gsm but I know pt of paper if the thickness and not weight..

 

[MagicBox]

I believe 14pt translates into 310gsm.

 

[Zwicker Press]

You can find 12 and 14pt in a variety of different gsm.
Carolina 14pt C2S is 305 gsm
Side note - They make an "ultra light" 12pt C1S thats only 236 gsm

I believe the new Konica's C8000 and the slower versions are spec'd for 350 gsm, but will only duplex 300. (Not positive on that.) I think that'd be the way to go if you want to run mostly postcards, because you can always go a little over spec.

We have a Konica, a Xerox, and a Ricoh machine, and when your trying to run over spec, the quality of the stock really becomes an issue. So, take that into consideration if you're use to using the cheapest stuff you can get

Also, I've talked to people with 6501's who run 14pt through them all day long, but they wont register if you try to duplex it.

The Ricoh 720/900 duplexes our 12pt C2S with near perfect registration. I haven't tried 14pt on it though, as it's out of spec for duplex and I hate running jobs through twice.

Make sure you get a feel for the service dept you're going to be dealing with. They'll end up being the ones who either help you out, or tell you you're running out of spec, and send you a bill for parts.

 

[choicemkg]

Xerox Dc5000

Xerox Dc5000

I have worked with a DC5000 for about 3 years. And the heaviest stock that I have ran is 13.6pt Invercote stock cut to 12x18 inchs. I have printed thousands of post cards on it. The DC5000 takes a good beating, but it does have some limitations. You will not be able to duplex the 300gsm stock you will have to manually flip the prints. The print drums have a short life span, if you don't get a contract with xerox this could be expensive. The Dc5000 has very nice looking prints and the color is great. It uses an oil base fusing system with give off a glossy look to the prints, but you will need to become a master at changing the heat rolls if you jump from 8.5x11 to 12x18 alot. You can get decent front to back registration but you will have to fiddle around with settings to get them just right. All and All it is a good machine and some time I wish we still had it.

Hope this helps you decision.

 

[LKent]

Thanks for the responses. Mohawk makes a C2S 14pt @ 293 gsm. So you are saying on the AP dupexing at that weight would be an issue? Can I just run it through twice and register with decent results? I want to cut down their sheets to 12.5 x 19 to get full bleed, which I believe is its max size. I plan on pushing people to 12pt but I want to still be capable of 14.

Im a big fan of Xerox and they have a pretty good presence out here and support looks good. Is it that the rep is telling me it wont tak 14pt because they dont want me cause faster wear and tear? I plan on paying cash for the machine so I havent hit the negotiation table yet. I know he told me .049 per click of color and size, which includes toner cost, service and maybe part...is that standard? Am I limited on toner or is that part of negotiations?

Thanks for responses btw

 

[Zwicker Press]

The AP is only spec'd to duplex up to 220 gsm, so I would say yes, duplexing 14pt will be an issue, In fact 12pt C2S is over 220. Running it through twice should work just fine, as the machine supports up to 300gsm simplexed.

.049 is the Xerox standard rate for color clicks (not great, but they're not f-ing you either)

Xerox continues to have the longest period between service calls as reported by users, but other machines in that price range offer higher weights for duplex printing. As this seems to be your bread and butter, you should try to make sure the bulk of your work is within spec, so it's on them if the machine doesn't perform as advertised.

Subscribe to the Larry Hunt Newsletter, before you even think about buying

 

[Josh]

The AP is only spec'd to duplex up to 220 gsm, so I would say yes, duplexing 14pt will be an issue, In fact 12pt C2S is over 220. Running it through twice should work just fine, as the machine supports up to 300gsm simplexed.

The 5000AP is spec'd to auto duplex 300gsm, see here: DocuColor 5000AP Digital Press for Speed and Productivity

We Duplex upto 350gsm on some stocks, for other stocks 300gsm is about the limit... but it definitely will do 300gsm!

 

[LKent]

thnx again guys...see Josh that is my issue...the sales rep says one thing, the company specs says another...in this case the specs says "Auto-duplexes up to 110 lb. cover (300 gsm)"...so why the heck wont it do 14pt, 293 gsm, according to the rep? I won't mind simplexing it for a while if it came down to it for this particular job. Its just hard to get truely accurate information during the research phase...

 

[Josh]

Ask for the CED (customer expectation document)

You've basically got two different measurements.... thickness (Pts or Microns) and weight (gsm)

You could in theory have a very thick stock (high number of pts or microns) that has a very low mass and therefore weighs very little... i.e 20pts and 200gsm (yes I'm exaggerating) so if they only spec'd in GSM then they'd have to get it running.

There will be two seperate specs in the document, one for thickness (pts) and one for weight (gsm)

Hope that makes some sense!!

 

[LKent]

it does and I been looking for that info online but no luck. but thanks it helps.

 

[LKent]

and btw http://www.xerox.com/downloads/usa/en/s/SMG_DC_5000AP.pdf under C1S says

"10 pt. should be run in the 187 – 300 gsm setting,
and 12 pt. and 14 pt. papers should be run in the 187 – 300 gsm range. Since many materials over
14 pts. of thickness will exceed the image transfer and feeding / transport capabilities of the
DocuColor 5000AP print engine, it is recommended to purchase small quantities to ensure your
expectations are met, prior to committing to large runs."

Materials over 14pt...so its basically saying it can handle 14pt thickness...

 

[ian]

thnx again guys...see Josh that is my issue...the sales rep says one thing, the company specs says another...in this case the specs says "Auto-duplexes up to 110 lb. cover (300 gsm)"...so why the heck wont it do 14pt, 293 gsm, according to the rep? I won't mind simplexing it for a while if it came down to it for this particular job. Its just hard to get truely accurate information during the research phase...

We have the 5000AP and run duplex 14pt without an issue, the only catch is if that's all the stock you run the fuser will wear out very quickly which means more downtime.

 

[X33]

that info is not online. Ask the rep for it.

I think the rep is just trying to cover his basis saying that it won't run 14pts.

If you can find 14pts below 300gsm, that's something unique. Probably the rep has not even heard about it. Don't talk to the rep based on points, do it based on gsm.

The fact is that the machine is rated to automatically duplex up to 300gsm; even if you find 18pts below 300gsm, you have a case.

 

[EASYdoor]

We're running every month at least 5k prints on 350gsm paper in one single step without any problems. We've never done a larger quantity than that, so i cannot comment on what can go wrong, but for us it works like a charm.

 

[LKent]

www.xerox.com/downloads/usa/en/s/SMG_DC_5000AP.pdf

It says it can take 14 pt. Mohawk also makes paper just under 300gsm for 14pt c2s

Easydoor you own a 5000ap and running 350? Thats pretty good and far past the specs I'm looking for

 

[EASYdoor]

Yeah, this is the beauty if you own the press you're self - im doing my own maintainance on the press (without service contract) and I'm able to push the boundary's of each machine that i own. I've currently added also an dc8000 into production and have sucessfully printed over 2k of personalized postcards - right before christmass with a TOC level of 380% (almost rich black) on a 300gsm paper fully duplexed without a problem. When i have the time i'll modify it to AP version and try pushing it also to 350 gsm in duplex mode - that would be the hammer ;-)

 

[amsman]

DC5000AP Stock Weights

DC5000AP Stock Weights

We had a DC5000AP for 2 years, it was a pretty reliable machine, easily capable of making decent income in a stand alone or hybrid situation like we did. ( In Australia )

We ran about 3k SRA3 Commercial 350gsm each day on the 5000AP and had no real problems with Fuser, Drum or feed path performance, we just couldn't duplex it.

The quality of the 300gsm to 350gsm boards coming out of Asia in particular has deteriorated over the last couple of years with far less wood fibre and lots more coating ( Filler ) so some of the newer Art boards are a nightmare in digital presses. Problems with slippage in the machine, image length and surface texture become apparent.

I found that Xerox's own 350gsm is in reality about 300gsm when compared to commercial stock. It will Duplex Xerox 350gsm, but not a true commercial 350gsm stock. The 350gsm stock will generally jam at the first deculing unit ( the right hand side under the Fuser Unit ) when trying to duplex, with clever setup I think it could be done....

Just test all your house stocks prior to entering into a purchase with Xerox and have it added to your contract or CED, because stock quality can ruin your day.

The back to front registration was very good, but once again it came down to the quality of the stock ( Matt and Silk are more accurate than the Gloss stocks ) so printing the first side and flipping to backup or print on the reverse is no real drama, unless on huge runs for obvious reasons.

Off topic, make sure you get hold of Xerox's Toner Lowering Profile. the color doesn't change but it will reduce the gloss level of the print which can also causing feed problems with stock, not to mention a more offset look to your print and more reliable lamination.

I am currently running a KM 6501 and back to front can be hard work compared to the 5000.