Ink and Fountain solution compatibility

[cementary]

I've found an interesting article describing easy way to Test Your Offset Printing Ink For Bleed
I got curious and made same test with our ink and fountain mix and got embarrasing result:

Ink has broke down in about 5 minutes (exept yellow – that took 15 min).

So question(s) are: am i doing something wrong? Is it a right way to test ink/fount compatibility? Do you know any other way to test ink/fount compatibility?

 

[aqazi81]

The best method is to test it on press because there are many other factors during print that are playing there part in the process.
The method you described can be good for ink bleed test but not for the real print situation.

 

[Dan Roll]

We used to refer to this as the pea test, putting a pea sized lump of ink into some FS and observing what happens. There are a lot of things you might see, but how well a particular ink and fountain solution will print on press is not one of them. One problem with this test is the ratio of water to ink is not representitive of what takes place on press, another is the lack of shear that is present when the press is running. I have observed several tests where a small amount of fountain solution was placed on the surface of ink in a small container, but the results of these tests were ambiguous at best.
Asif is right, the best ink/fountain solution evaluation device is the press the products are to be used on.

 

[D Ink Man]

Surland curve via the Duke is one, which is a multiple point water pick up test.

Lithotronic is a high $ emulsification tester that is relatable to the press with ink formulation/fount combinations.

The whizzer test that Dan speaks of is taking a small string of ink and dropping it into a vessel (20 ml is OK) and see what happens. I have seen the ink strand actually whiz around, and have found that is a good indication of compatibility between the two medians. If the strand drops to the bottom like a whale poop, the compatibility is not considered desirable.

With the bleed tests, it has been my experience that bleed and ring around the collar (WPU test) are good, again good marriage.

All these mentions however are certainly static tests, but with much laboratory work and study the dynamic happenings on press do become more predictable.

D Ink Man

 

[D Ink Man]

Added feelings here. I posted my previous reply before reading link Test Your Offset Printing Ink For Bleed article.

I must say I have sort of a contrarian view of this test method and the interpretation . The Bleed in my opinion is a positive property that shows there is good interaction between the ink and fount that leads to ink/water balance control and the best possibility of forming the much needed micro emulsion that promotes op notch lithographing.

D Ink Man

 

[cementary]

Added feelings here

D Ink Man

It's hard argue with this post (especially 'cause i don't have proper education for that), but emulsion can be different

(sorry, don't have better image)
I don't think i need a microscope to see that our inks (except yellow) broke to second type emulsion, which is not quite good as i understand.

 

[D Ink Man]

By the way cementary, what 4/C process inks do you use?

Also, press, dampening and fountain solution data would be helpful.

D

 

[cementary]

Inks – Huber Resista N, Resista F
fountain solution Oktofount sf-s (was wassertop 3.0) (don't try to find the tech data for Oktofount – it doesn't exist – trying to figure out why we're using it)
Press – ManRoland 904 (x4), Roland 705, Roland 708, Roland 702
IPA – about 9%
Water – reverse osmos (soft)
KCMY order

Photos from the first post are from roland 904 with resista N inks (same result with resista F)

 

[D Ink Man]

Ha ha cementary!! I got it, have ran across this ink before, the Resista as Hostmann Steinberg in the states. I know it has a very small operating range with ink/water balance, no matter the fount. Beat out in an account in the Keystone state.

Change inks for trial, please.

If you can get your hands on them I would recommend TOYO Hyplus series. It is about the best commercial sheet fed offset series for printability and runnability available today. About a 24-48 hour series stay open, which is an ink that dries and actually dries because of the drying oil type/content.

This drying oil concoction will open up your window vs. Resista, point made. Please try it.

D Ink Man

 

[Lukew]

D Ink Man, can you post up whats written on the cans of hyplus ink your referring to. I noticed many many months ago here the hyplus 100 was changed to hyplus 100 NEX. I was told its exactly the same, funny the original hyplus 100 has linseed oil and the new NEX version has tung oil. amongst other changes
Hyplus 100 ink had significantly better rub resistance and any image area on the poly plate the ink would be dry following day.
hyplus 100 NEX has poor rub resistance, dries slower and the ink on image area of poly plate doesn't dry.
Hyplus 100 ink tins would skin over with a wrinkly durable skin in under 24 hours the hyplus 100 NEX takes days to skin over

 

[D Ink Man]

Lukew,

I have no access at this time to TOYO inks. But what you said makes perfect sense with the drying oil combinations. Even though the NEX has the more aggressive drying tung oil it is the amount of tung/linseed/other vegetable oils that govern the drying properties in concert with the resins in the vehicle system as well as any trace petroleum solvents.

As a person I would too choose the 100 series because it really is a formulation that dries. The NEX was introduced to satisfy the insatiable appetite of SF printers for stay open ink. If I were a printer I would sacrifice stay open and work a little harder press side to clean the press to prevent skinning and drying up on press. 36 hour open time is reasonable in my opinion to best produce a finished printed product that dries and polymerizes to a hard film

D Ink Man

 

[cementary]

Toyo ink is not an option. We have to stay with huber group (for now at least)
Anyway, i didn't find hyplus in russian catalog:

Some of our "older" pressmans remeber that there was no porblem with exessive ink build's up when fount soulution was "printCom" labeled. (ink always were the same – Resista

 

[aqazi81]

Change the fount solution if possible....

 

[D Ink Man]

Toyo ink is not an option. We have to stay with huber group (for now at least)
Anyway, i didn't find hyplus in russian catalog:
View attachment 4848
Some of our "older" pressmans remeber that there was no problem with excessive ink build's up when fount soulution was "printCom" labeled. (ink always were the same – Resista

Another ill begotten´´package deal´´ I suspect. You are married to some deal that contracts you to run all of one vendors catalog of products. >Too bad, try to circumvent this in any way possible to get the TOYO Hyplus 100. By the way, I have no affiliation with TOYO and would also say do not expect much Technical Service from them, but you can expect a good offset oxidative sheet fed process series. Endeavor for it.

D Ink Man

 

[cementary]

So, we've changed our fountain solution for "substifix hd" and problem is gone now.
Now thinking 'bout changing inks.

 

[D Ink Man]

The beauty of Lithography, so many variables that can be changed to make things better. But usually some sort of trade off.

Recognizing the gain versus any trade is paramount in approaching the 'Perfect Print'.

It's like having a high end sports car with a transmission containing 100 gears to choose. Only Litho, has more gears and you can hum right through them.

Good going!

D