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Manroland 205E make-ready (2006) (CIP3+Techkon RS400)

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  • Manroland 205E make-ready (2006) (CIP3+Techkon RS400)

    Hello,

    firstly i would like to introduce myself, I´m young (28) man who is new in my father´s offset press company.
    Nobody was using the closed loop control and CIP3 until now! I think its not clever to run this press for more than 11 years this way... Our financial situation shows my thoughts too (its not really good)...
    So lets go to the point:

    Our company have 5 color Manroland 205E with Techkon RS400 and Expresso 2.2 closed loop control. We also have new Harlequin RIP that generates CIP3 data.
    I´m trying to get all things working, we have now calibrated linearization on our RIP and i can convert CIP3 to Manroland Jobcard EPS data.
    This data simulates old obsolete Manroland EPS (Electric Plate Scanner or what its name is... the really big and heavy device that we dont have).
    I can generate the area and zone coverages via Print PressPerCent software and get it to the press.

    Now the problem:
    What is exact procedure to make-ready the press?
    Make-ready:
    1.) I have loaded CIP3/Zones coverag data via Manroland Jobcard
    2.) There is "mysterious menu" on the press (Its name is "Load EPS data"), there are all color shown (C,M,Y,K,S1) and their total percentual % coverage. There is some correction (that im not sure how to set, 50-150% per color). There are also some low,mid and high zone coverage maximal values for ductor? And lastly there are "Correction curves" its number 1-11 (each coverage low,mid,high have its own value).
    3.) When we set theese things up, the press starts to pre-set ink keys in each zone on each printing unit.
    4.) We run the press for about 10-20 sheets
    5.) We make first measure and first automatic adjustement
    6.) We run next 10-20 sheets
    7.) Measure #2, Automatic Adjustement #2
    .. and so
    8.) We get close to reference ISO values
    9.) about 50-100 make-ready archs already done
    10.) We decide to run the press
    Press run:
    1.) first sheets are good
    3.) We are keeping to measure every ~50th arch
    4.) We still keep making automatic adjustements of ink keys in zones (Im not sure about this! maybe automatic adjust is only for make-ready?)
    5.) Measuiring shows colors going down
    6.) Auto adjust opens the keys more
    7.) Next measure shows still less color!
    8.) Auto adjust opens keys extremly!
    9.) Too much ink on sheets! - FAIL
    we must stop... manualy clean machine... and finish the run without auto-adjust and without measuring, values set by hand.

    Im praying to god that somebody will help us...
    Any advice would be helpful...

    - M.K. Czech Republic


  • #2
    Hi MK,

    I can not help you with your specific problem but I can discuss the some science behind this problem.

    You are hoping to get a quick and short makeready but there are limitations to doing this with the existing technology you are using.

    One. The required ink feed per ink zone is NOT directly related to image area coverage. Since you are using image area coverage as the starting point, you will be starting most probably with the wrong settings.

    Two. Offset presses suffer from not being able to actually feed ink at a predictable and consistent rate and this means that even if you had the correct ink key settings, the ink feed of those keys will not be predictable and consistent.

    Three. With modern offset presses, it is still almost impossible to obtain a proper zero set point for the ink keys. A zero set point is important because it is the datum for the preset data of the ink keys.

    Four. Offset presses tend to run in two different conditions. One is a mostly steady state condition where the average print density does not change much. The other is a transient condition where the average print density is changing from one value to another. If you are at a steady state print density condition and want to go to another steady state print density condition, you would need to change the ink feed and then the press must go through a transient to get to the new steady state condition. The transient condition is due to a change in how the ink is stored on the roller train.

    In a stead state condition, the ink on the roller train is distributed with different ink films on different ink roller depending on the ink consumption rates. It you stop printing but still are rotating the rollers in the roller train, this steady state ink distribution is destroyed. When you start printing again, it takes a number of impressions for this ink distribution to reestablish it self.

    Note: Press manufacturers still have shown no interest to address these issues in their technologies and the complicated settings in their systems really only covers up the fact that they are clueless or lazy or just incompetent in knowing how to fix these issues.

    So your problem has some issues one can discuss.

    Closed loop colour control systems, which are the kind that a single sheet is placed on a table and scanned, are the simplest form of closed loop. The problem with these systems is that the measured value is only a snap shot of what the print density is and one can not tell whether the value is steady state, increasing or decreasing. Making a judgement based on the value and assuming the direction in a specific direction can result in the wrong direction for the adjustment.

    Also with any closed loop system, there is the danger that any strong correction factor (gain) will result in an unstable result when there was no instability in the process in the first place. Therefore it is best to set the gain very low when starting with such a system and carefully increase it. Don't be aggressive with corrections.

    For these reasons, these kind of closed loop systems are not so good for makeready.

    Transients. Running 10 to 20 sheets is probably not enough to be in a steady state condition. You are probably still in a transient. Making a measurement and adjusting aggressively with values that are in a transient will result in the wrong actions.

    Also every time you stop printing and make adjustments, there needs to be some amount of printing to get back to a new steady state condition.

    Sorry I can't be of more help but I hope this explanation gives you some ideas.


    Comment


    • #3
      Regardless of the offset press, and regardless of the closed loop system you are using, I agree with Eric, in his statement that 10 to 20 sheets will not be enough. The press needs to run enough sheets to establish as Eric describes as a steady state condition. On a form with a large amount of takeoff from gripper to tail, this steady state will occur with less sheets, but even with full coverage I think that 20 sheets are not enough. When it comes to light coverage with very little ink fountain peel you will require considerably more sheets to accurately find a balanced state of replenishment.
      It also should be noted that even with the most sophisticated closed loop system, its a given that the first adjustment is nothing more that a roll of the dice, until an algorithm can be established. With each subsequent press pull, the algorithm becomes more finely tuned.
      Its also worthy of mention, that the accuracy of your CIP data will greatly affect your accuracy on the earlier press pulls. With all of this Im going on the assumption that you have a competent pressman at the controls.

      Comment


      • #4
        Dear Erik,
        thank you so much for such a fast and informative reply!
        -
        Yes we hope for short make-ready, but more important for us is color consistency in printed sheetes. We have many complaints/reclamations due to colors differencies!

        We are facing both differencies in one arch (if we place more labels on arch, every part is different, left is not same colored as right) also there are color differencies in whole run.

        So thats the most priority issue, because our customers is not satisfied and anoyed!

        So some replies to your text:

        1.) The zone coverage data on card are recalculated in press (according to settings on small control panel, the correction values and correction curves) so the press itself opens the zone keys accordingly (according to PressPerCent software author, most users is using this way, the "imitation" of Plate scanner EPS device). So the area coverage is recalculated somehow to ink zones settings.

        2.) useful information

        3.) Ok, I hope that we can get as close as possible, but of course, not the perfect settings on first attemp

        4.) That was the most useful and also logical answer if I think about it this way. Thanks a lot

        5.) Steady state destruction is bad fact. Because 205E do not have high-top output tray, and we fill it in very short time, so pressmen needs to stop print and get the printed sheets out of the output tray...

        -

        Ok so what is correct work proccess? I noted that adjustments needs to be done very precisely and carefully. But how can one use this closed loop thing? Im really wondering how other companies makes it.

        When we are doing "make-ready" we are stopping the print, im not sure if thats correct. But as i say, when we decide the run the press after makeready, we was making auto-adjustements and measuring while press was running.

        We also run on half speed (5.000 archs/hour) I cannot imagine full speed!

        So my next question is, how usually make-ready, press run, adjustements and measuring should be done?


        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by turbotom1052 View Post
          Regardless of the offset press, and regardless of the closed loop system you are using, I agree with Eric, in his statement that 10 to 20 sheets will not be enough. The press needs to run enough sheets to establish as Eric describes as a steady state condition. On a form with a large amount of takeoff from gripper to tail, this steady state will occur with less sheets, but even with full coverage I think that 20 sheets are not enough. When it comes to light coverage with very little ink fountain peel you will require considerably more sheets to accurately find a balanced state of replenishment.
          It also should be noted that even with the most sophisticated closed loop system, its a given that the first adjustment is nothing more that a roll of the dice, until an algorithm can be established. With each subsequent press pull, the algorithm becomes more finely tuned.
          Its also worthy of mention, that the accuracy of your CIP data will greatly affect your accuracy on the earlier press pulls. With all of this Im going on the assumption that you have a competent pressman at the controls.
          Thanks for your answer.
          OK we can add more than 20 sheets, what is usual amount?

          Please, what you mean by "press pull"? When the measurements and adjusting should be done?

          I agree, the CIP data is key for initial setting, We must figure how it should be imported into our press correctly, maybe I will try the phone caľ to manroland (Im sure they will charge something for consultacy

          Comment


          • #6
            Hi MK

            we have ManRoland 500 with Techkon RS400 and Expresso 2.3 as the closed loop. We have no CIP3 initial presetting because there is no JobCard interface on the MR press, but we can make ink key adjustments with Techkon Expresso during the run.
            When the press came at the printshop our pressmen noticed that it has much less count of ink rollers than Komori press their were working with before. It took some time for accustoming with MANRoland and establish normal work behavior for operators. Any stop of the press makes the drastic distortion of ink densities put on the paper. Press operators were talking this is because of less amount of rollers than in Komori before. The press simply cannot hold ink distribution in steady state during idle. Usually we require 150-200 sheets for make-ready. During make-ready all ink adjustments are performing only manually. The operator perform the closed loop adjustment only and only when there is needed a minor correction. When the press loses ink target density a lot the pressman make adjustment manually not stopping the press. At that moment "the closed loop" is working in skilled and smart brain of the pressman. The press tends to lose densities even during of uninterrupted run, but it is always possible to predict the tendency of general changes. Some times ink starts to drop, some times ink starts to rise and pressman plays with ductor and ink zone groups but very carefully and on the fly. Due to such character of the printing press the planner tends to give them jobs with big runs as much as possible.
            Last edited by Saulius; 07-28-2017, 02:57 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by majklcze View Post

              Thanks for your answer.
              OK we can add more than 20 sheets, what is usual amount?

              Please, what you mean by "press pull"? When the measurements and adjusting should be done?

              I agree, the CIP data is key for initial setting, We must figure how it should be imported into our press correctly, maybe I will try the phone caľ to manroland (Im sure they will charge something for consultacy
              The amount of paper needed after making color corrections on press varies. The biggest variable in my opinion is the amount of coverage. Its a common misconception, by many people in management, that heavy coverage requires more sheets for color makeready than light coverage. This is not true. Heavy coverage will usually show any changes made to the ink zones or sweep, with much less sheets than it takes to initiate a color change with very light coverage. It all has to do with replenishment of the ink into the inker. Heavy coverage has much more give and take into the inker than light coverage.
              Then of course there is the quality standards of the printing company. At what point will management allow the pressman to flip on the counter and start printing salable sheets??? On a run of say 10,000 impressions it wouldn't be so bad to fine tune the color within the first 500 or so sheets, as they can easily be absorbed into the job. On a run of 500 sheets it would not be as easy. The color on the 500 sheet run would need to be pretty spot on before you begin counting.
              Last but not least there is the skill level of the press crew. It never ceases to amaze me how some firms management, will do their very best to save money by hiring less than fully competent pressman to man the controls of their large multicolor press. These presses are often being billed at $300 per hour or better. The money saved by paying a pressman 5 or even 10 dollars and hour less is a small percentage of the average hourly rate billed for a multicolor press. The cost of paper savings alone, that a seasoned pro will save you on a daily basis, easily makes up for for a few dollars an hour more salary.
              All this being said, I feel that if you back me into a corner for an average amount of makeready sheets needed, I would think that 300 to 400 sheets per form ,would not be excessive, when doing quality printing, with experienced press crews, on decent, well maintained equipment. The average number needed to show any changes initiated at the console would be between 75 to 100 sheets.
              Some bean counters will read this and say that is an excessive amount of paper, and that their press crews do it with less paper, but my bet is that the press crews have been forced to compromise their standards and work with whats given to them. I can assure them that they are not printing to my standards or to the standards of MOST of the companies I've been employed by.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Saulius View Post
                Hi MK

                we have ManRoland 500 with Techkon RS400 and Expresso 2.3 as the closed loop. We have no CIP3 initial presetting because there is no JobCard interface on the MR press, but we can make ink key adjustments with Techkon Expresso during the run.
                When the press came at the printshop our pressmen noticed that it has much less count of ink rollers than Komori press their were working with before. It took some time for accustoming with MANRoland and establish normal work behavior for operators. Any stop of the press makes the drastic distortion of ink densities put on the paper. Press operators were talking this is because of less amount of rollers than in Komori before. The press simply cannot hold ink distribution in steady state during idle. Usually we require 150-200 sheets for make-ready. During make-ready all ink adjustments are performing only manually. The operator perform the closed loop adjustment only and only when there is needed a minor correction. When the press loses ink target density a lot the pressman make adjustment manually not stopping the press. At that moment "the closed loop" is working in skilled and smart brain of the pressman. The press tends to lose densities even during of uninterrupted run, but it is always possible to predict the tendency of general changes. Some times ink starts to drop, some times ink starts to rise and pressman plays with ductor and ink zone groups but very carefully and on the fly. Due to such character of the printing press the planner tends to give them jobs with big runs as much as possible.
                Hi and thanks for your reply!

                1.) If you will need to help with CIP3 I´m here to help! I must recommend Excourse PressPerCent software with their awesome tech support! But it should be a problem that your press doesn't have JobCard reader, but maybe it can be added or there can be some kind of "EPS" data connection, lastly, the PC with Techkon is connected via Serial channel... We have found that pre-setting works great. I'm attaching a photo of the first adjustment:

                ​​​​​​​
                The Cyan is off, but how to know when you can make auto-adjust? Only when measured data is not out of scale for instance?

                2.) Thanks for estimating the make-ready sheets. We will try to figure out how many are needed for our 205E.
                We are also using different paper for make-ready, I guess it's not a good idea, because of different ink-consumption?

                3.) Do you calculate your print work based on hourly rate of the press and incoming material + make-ready? We are on price per sheet right now (I'm thinking about switching to price per hour of print)
                Last edited by majklcze; 07-30-2017, 02:27 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  This subject of course, has been my main interest in the printing process. My view has been and still is, that makeready sheet counts can be in the range of 50 sheets for a conventional press when the process is modified to eliminate some of the major flaws. This is also irrespective of coverage. Yes, light coverage takes more impressions to get to target densities but it can get to within tolerance densities in 50 impressions. With a complete redesign of the press roller train, the count can be down in the range of 20 sheets or less and still have a press concept that is very flexible to run any inks and different densities if desired.

                  This view is supported by computer simulations I had my group do back in 1990 and we studied the design of our conventional Chambon press and also a single form concept press. Computer simulations assume that the ink feed is done in a positive way, such that the ink feed is not affected by variables. Computer simulations do not represent how actual presses perform because actual presses do not control ink feed consistently due to the ink feed being affected by many variables. The goal in developing press technology is not to make simulations that represent existing flawed press concepts but to make presses that can perform in a mathematical way that is described by a simulation.

                  Also in 1990, the importance of an accurate zero set point was demonstrated when one guy in my group came up with an interesting method for setting the zero set point without running any paper. The Chambon press had a continuous ductor and this method worked for that arrangement. Within a week, our set up meters when down from about 1400 to 1100 just due to one less stop and pull required. (roll to roll production)

                  In 1991, we showed with a prototype, that when correcting the main issue for inconsistent ink feed, the density could be consistent and independent of variables such as water, press speed, starts after stops, etc.

                  In about 1996, I discovered how poorly area coverage of the plate is an indicator of how much ink is required by the ink zones. One might think that this might be small but it can actually be quite large. Errors of up to 40% are possible. So I looked at what kind of calculation was required to obtain the correct ink key preset values. Not a difficult calculation but complicated due to several different steps.

                  I have also come up with press technology concepts that would eliminate ink/water balance (ITB patent) and starvation ghosting, evening ink distribution across the press by a factor of about 100, greatly reduce misting, reconfiguring the application of dampening solution, elimination of dampening solution treatment and its waste disposal, etc.

                  Also, the issue of getting to a density target does not require highly accurate technology. We are not aiming for a single value but aiming to be in the upper and lower tolerance range. This has been normally +/- 0.05 density points. This is actually quite a large range based on the range of the amount of ink in the ink film required. For commercial inks, this range is about +/- 6% of ink. The total range then is 12% of ink volume. Not being able to get into that large target just shows how poorly some existing technology works.

                  So, my view is based on lots of practical experience, analytical investigations and experimentation. These targets are practical goals but changes are required.

                  In over twenty years of trying to get the industry to change, I found that there is no interest what so ever to make those required changes. This means that you are stuck where you are without improved low cost technology and no explanations for how things actually work.

                  I am 70 years old, my patents are no longer in force and basically I have lost interest in helping an industry that is too blind to think of new possibilities. It was a big mistake for me to get involved in this process and as far as I can tell, I was the only person on the planet (earth) that actually wanted to change the process and knew how to.

                  Year after year, I hear about some people having all kinds of problems related to these issues and I feel very very sorry for them because help could have been provided but the industry itself does not care enough to actually think about it. Even experienced printers, fight against thinking in any new direction.

                  So this kind of knowledge does not help anyone since it requires change but change was possible.



                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by majklcze View Post

                    Hi and thanks for your reply!

                    1.) If you will need to help with CIP3 I´m here to help! I must recommend Excourse PressPerCent software with their awesome tech support! But it should be a problem that your press doesn't have JobCard reader, but maybe it can be added or there can be some kind of "EPS" data connection, lastly, the PC with Techkon is connected via Serial channel... We have found that pre-setting works great. I'm attaching a photo of the first adjustment:

                    ​​​​​​​
                    The Cyan is off, but how to know when you can make auto-adjust? Only when measured data is not out of scale for instance?

                    2.) Thanks for estimating the make-ready sheets. We will try to figure out how many are needed for our 205E.
                    We are also using different paper for make-ready, I guess it's not a good idea, because of different ink-consumption?

                    3.) Do you calculate your print work based on hourly rate of the press and incoming material + make-ready? We are on price per sheet right now (I'm thinking about switching to price per hour of print)
                    1. Thank you for the ready to help. We have PressPerCent and the consulting from the external specialist was ordered. I also have connected with InkZone and PrintFlow companies and they have asserted that the ink presenting is possible. But the problem of it is too little in our current context (we are growing rapidly in investing to the new equipment in other areas) and the management do not want to invest in it. The Techkon device itself communicates via Serial with Expresso software only to pass the measurement data. The communication with the press is between Expresso's computer and the press via COM2. I have captured binary packets which the Expresso sends to the press. It is challenging to make reverse engendering of the data, but maybe I will do that on spare time in the future.

                    2. Pressman wouldn't do the auto-adjust in this phase. He would make correction of the duct value and all ink zone values of the cyan tower manually. I'm not a press operator and do not have deep skill in operating the press, but what I have realized while talking with them is that controlling the press is more like controlling a big ship than the driving of a car. You cannot "drag" with the ship. All commands the ship performs are with a big time lag and same is with the printing press. The pressman have to know or even feel the printing press behavior and it is unique for each press. In your case doing the auto-adjust at this moment is like "dragging" with the ship.

                    3. If you get print outs which satisfy you, why not. We wouldn't do that.

                    4. There are finance and IT group for doing calculations. I have no idea how they calculate.
                    Last edited by Saulius; 09-21-2017, 07:13 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hello Erik,

                      by reading about yours incredible works and the dedication to the improvement of printing technology I was thinking that nothing goes away as you may think. All deeds are always somewhere in the air and wait for the right moment. Sadly, but some genial ideas get implemented not by their authors.

                      What cause of Bill Gate's rising and success ? Isn't he lived in the era when a lot of ideas about future technologies were in the air ? Weren't somewhere individuals who have a much more genial ideas than he had ? Weren't somewhere a better things than Windows or Apple OS have been started ? I guess that those ideas and developments existed. But Bill Gates won over all others because he didn't forget about money. Money is the first thing and perfection is the second. It is the same in all businesses. The constant thinking about money get the comprehension of ideas too primitive.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Saulius View Post

                        1. Thank you for the ready to help. We have PressPerCent and the consulting from the external specialist was ordered. I also have connected with InkZone and PrintFlow companies and they have asserted that the ink presenting is possible. But the problem of it is too little in our current context (we are growing rapidly in investing to the new equipment in other areas) and the management do not want to invest in it. The Techkon device itself communicates via Serial with Expresso software only to pass the measurement data. The communication with the press is between Expresso's computer and the press via COM2. I have captured binary packets which the Expresso sends to the press. It is challenging to make reverse engendering of the data, but maybe I will do that on spare time in the future.

                        2. Pressman wouldn't do the auto-adjust in this phase. He would make correction of the duct value and all ink zone values of the cyan tower manually. I'm not a press operator and do not have deep skill in operating the press, but what I have realized while talking with them is that controlling the press is more like controlling a big ship than the driving of a car. You cannot "drag" with the ship. All commands the ship performs are with a big time lag and same is with the printing press. The pressman have to know or even feel the printing press behavior and it is unique for each press. In your case doing the auto-adjust at this moment is like "dragging" with the ship.

                        3. If you get print outs which satisfy you, why not. We wouldn't do that.

                        4. There are finance and IT group for doing calculations. I have no idea how they calculate.
                        Sorry for late reply, but I was working hard on my solution.
                        You have inspired me with your idea:

                        "The communication with the press is between Expresso's computer and the press via COM2. I have captured binary packets which the Expresso sends to the press. It is challenging to make reverse engendering of the data, but maybe I will do that on spare time in the future."
                        And yes, I spent some time looking on COM communication, and captured and reverse-engineered packets that goes from Expresso to Manroland COM interface.

                        It was quite easy protocol and now I end up with my own program for sending data generated by PressPerCent to my press! Everything works based on Hot folders, so it is quite simple for pressmen to select current job and load data without card (It was too complicated to write cards and take it with plates, too much time...).
                        Now we have simple interface to load CIP3 data to Manroland 200, If somebody can find it usefull I can send source-code or communication protocol that I have discovered! (discovered: read, write, set to zero, go back before zero, to-do: set ductor)

                        The only thing that I did not manage to set via COM is ductor settings, program shows desired value on screen after sending data and pressman needs to set it manually.

                        Here is screenshot: (names of clients/jobs censored)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          It is a wonderful breakthrough ! Sincere congratulations to you ! I'm very interested to see the source code. Please mail to stonys.saul@gmail.com

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Saulius View Post
                            It is a wonderful breakthrough ! Sincere congratulations to you ! I'm very interested to see the source code. Please mail to stonys.saul@gmail.com
                            I will send you PM with details

                            Comment

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