JDF for beginners

[mark_anderson_us]

Re: JDF for beginners

Hi Hal

Thanks for the reply. I wouldn't lump you into any Tom, Dick and Harry!

We're a bit further along with JDF than you seem to think, but you;re right, there's a long way to go. JDF is only on v1.3 and consider that 10 years after PDF came along, it was only accepted and used by 20% of printers.

The spec is incredibly ambitious (connect anything t anything), and I agree it has been massively over-hyped by the press, the vendors and consultants. I worked for an MIS vendor who did nothing but JDF demos, but when it came down to putting it into production it was a different matter; there just wasn't the level of detail required in one or the other vendors' implementation or the spec wasn't rich enough. Now I work for another MIS vendor with a mach better product and JDF is icing on the cake for us, not our raison d'etre. Because of the market we serve and the prepress systems some of our customers have, they can't even consider JDF integration at this stage (see below)

Stuff like JDF to sheetfed presses is pretty simple stuff. However, the cost of new electronics and SW required for a lot of heavy iron just makes it uneconomic to even consider JDF. If you have an old stitcher )or even a new one without motorized arbors - a $100K option), you can't use JDF period.

JDF to prepress with imposition/layout info, section level proofing and approval requirements is much more complex and still isn't possible in the real world without using private extensions with every pre-press vendor. On top of that there's the update issue. The majority of our customers are newspaper and periodical printers and these guys change paginations on a daily basis in the days coming up to production, so the prepress system has to be able to receive a new JDF and insert the changes without destroying the entire job. This is a tricky procedure and I have to say Agfa do it brilliantly, but once a job gets so far into production it's no longer possible to send an update.

JDF still has a long way to go, but it is getting there.


If you have a good understanding of XML, XPath and the relevant part of the JDF spec, you could build something, but it would take quite a bit of time.

If you want to buy a 3rd party JDF adapter for your product, talk to Gareth at Objective Advantage, I know they had one that they sold to some MIS vendors. Not sure if they still offer it or not.

Regards

Mark

 

[Morning Flight]

Re: JDF for beginners

Fair enough, Mark, and well put. If your revealing overview is accurate, and I have no reason to think it isn't, a lot of small and mid-size printers can stop looking over their shoulder.

The big guys are already in the game. They saw what happened to automotive assembly lines. And they probably don't care to be reminded that it was the Gutenberg Bible, not cars or refrigerators, that ushered in the age of mass production long before Old Henry made history with the Tin Lizzie. Our industry is still playing catch-up with the robots.

I would hope that some smaller shops will soon be able to stick a toe into the JDF waters with pre-press, helped by private extensions (the "drivers" I was alluding to earlier). Digital presses ought to be next. Both areas are computer-savvy and should be cost-efficient to interface. That's probably going to be it for a while at the lower sales volume levels.

The old Rosback saddlestitcher or 23x35 Baum folder will never get integrated into a JDF network, you're absolutely right about that. The day when JDF will let us connect anything to anything? I think that's beyond ambitious. At the rate technology is advancing, more like the caboose chasing the locomotive.

About the third party JDF adapter for Morning Flight, Mark, I appreciate the lead. At this point, though, our first priority is to port "How to Get it Printed" from the desktop to the Internet. The app, a wizard-driven +Electric Catalog and Price List,+ will enable even novice print buyers to access the full-blown Morning Flight pricing engine 24/7.

Why the floppies? Only a handful of customers had CD drives back in '95.


All the best,
Hal
http://www.printfire.com/howtoprint.html

!http://www.printfire.com/Images/HowTo.jpg!

 

[michaelejahn]

Re: JDF for beginners

@ Mark Anderson,

Spot on.

While I once used to write PostScript to fool our Scitex VIP (Visionary Interpreter for PostScript) into making use-able film (1991 i think?), I will say that anyone wanting to build useful tools that emit JDF most likely will need to contact someone who can code in C sharp, python or perl, or knows their way around using ISV SDKs.

At AGFA, I recall that we built a small JDF editor using Microsoft Access, where we could tweak and test, but real solutions require JMF as well - so, this is more like the controller type objects in the Adobe PostScript Language -- hardly for the 'beginner'.

I still can't write a PDF directly in notepad, and coding PDF is FAR simpler than coding a communication to turn things on and off to another system - that is really what JDF is - a language that lets workflows communicate between each other, using a public specification - and while that all sounds like like a "and it will solve world hunger too" kinda thing - most vendors simply parse the code and translate it into their proprietray machine language for efficiency sake.

@ anyone wanting to use JDF but NOT write code or hack XML in notepad

You might contact Dwight at Apago, he might help you for a small fee, and he really knows what he is doing.

http://www.apagoinc.com/prod_home.php?prod_id=32

hope this helps !

 

[neotrog]

Re: JDF for beginners

A lot of very good points. Plenty of food for thought and a healthy reality check.

Defining where JDF fits in the schema of things is as important as defining the JDF Spec. itself. Simply put, it's a wheel that's already too big to re-invent any level. It would probably take in the order of "man years" to try and fully integrate JDF compliance into en existing large scale system. In the end, what would you have? You'd have the need for a full time staff to keep it up to date. So what initially seems like a shocking price tag for these JDF compliant ERP systems may in fact be a bargain compared to doing it yourself. For those willing and able to commit to a standardized highly efficient way of mass production these WILL be the tools of the future. For those operations unable or unwilling to give up dynamism and individuality as means of production the tool is not yet on the radar. As always there will be those clever enough to throw a hook into the coat-tails of the giants and get a much needed boost but it's going to be so difficult. I see JDF as the "middle". It's the front and the back that are elusive. How does one create a simple yet comprehensive GUI for something that can go in so many directions? How does one keep pace with the infinite variations production machine vendors are likely to come up with? It may be that only the companies that are members of CIP4 can manage it. For many of us, it's as good a proprietary.

 

[dwanehollands]

Re: JDF for beginners

Hi Mark,

Just wondering whether you could explain something about JDF? While waiting for a press operator to finish a longer shift I had another look at some JDF files opened in firefox in an attempt to familiarise myself more with JDF. This time I opened a JDF file created by preps. It's a Work & Back with 40 cards on the front and 40 cards on the back. Business card size.

What I'm curious about, is how the run list is associated with pages on the signatures. What confuses me is the fact that although there are 80 files in my Preps job (40 fronts, 40 backs), it appears that the numbering starts from zero (0) and runs to 79.

(can't seem to get the link to the uploaded files so that I can display them in this post.Argghh)

Anyway JDF1.jpg shows <RunList Pages="0~0" Run="0"></RunList>

When I expand that and also expand the <LayoutElement> I see FileSpec and eventually a URL to my "A1Radiators_001.pdf" file. Now I know for a fact that, that particular file is page 1 in my run list in Preps.

So why is it set at Run="0"?

Edited by: Dwane Hollands on Jun 13, 2008 6:49 PM

Edited by: Dwane Hollands on Jun 13, 2008 6:57 PM

 

[mark_anderson_us]

Re: JDF for beginners

Hi Dwane

It's very common in computer programming to start lists at 0 instead of 1. For example, the first element in an array is typically array[0] in most languages. No other reason.

Somewhere in the JDF there's be a link between the runlinst page number 0 and folio number 1 (it could be folio number "a" or "i" or something else too).

Regards

mark

 

[dwanehollands]

Re: JDF for beginners

Cool, thanks for that Mark.

I'll keep looking...

 

[Exprestlac]

JDF connectivity

JDF connectivity

Hi,

I have Xerox docucolor 242 with external RIP, and i communicate JDF files to the printer through Fiery JDF connector client.

For the web-to-print solution I need to set only a few of basic priting options such as:
Tray, number of copies, brightness of printing, paper size, paper weight and paper type.

I have created some JDF files through Adobe Acrobat 9 Pro Extended just for try-out. But I have problems with the compatibility. I am able to send the file to print with defined Tray, number of copies, paper size and orientation.

But I have a problem with:
- Paper options (paper size, paper type) I have them set in the JDF file syntax, but the printer ignores them. I tried to set them in Acrobat, JDF connector also directly in the syntax, but the printer ignores the command.

- Printing brightness. I am not able to find a simple command for setting the brightness.

I would like to ask that if there is a problem with the compatibility, and if there is a way how to fix it, or if it is a problem with the syntax of JDF
I have attachet one JDF syntax, that i have been using.