Are Riso ComColor worth it?

[Tradidi]

I am looking at buying my first production machine, mainly for printing A4 black and white pages for perfect bound books.

I have just been given 2 ex-lease options, the ComColor 7150 (NZD 6,000+GST) and the GD7330 (NZD 13,000+GST).

I searched this forum on advice on the Riso ComColor range and came across this red flag:

https://printplanet.com/threads/riso-comcolor-9150-looking-for-some-advices.293194/

Hence my question, what have other people experienced with the ComColor printers? Are they all as bad as @SPP-ShaneC described it? Are there better options for a small budget?

 

[SoggyWinter]

What is your budget and monthly volume? I'd take a look at used BW toner machines if you can get them and have access to parts.

 

[Tradidi]

What is your budget and monthly volume? I'd take a look at used BW toner machines if you can get them and have access to parts.

I want to stay clear of laser based printers, mainly because of the paper wave/curl problems I've had with them. As for budget, I prefer between $5 and $10k (NZD), possibly a little higher if there's a good enough reason for it.

 

[Magnus59]

I want to stay clear of laser based printers, mainly because of the paper wave/curl problems I've had with them. As for budget, I prefer between $5 and $10k (NZD), possibly a little higher if there's a good enough reason for it.

Virtually every commercial printer in the world is printing books on toner based machines without any issues of curling or wavy stock in the finished product.
We have been printing books for over 30 years, our first toner based machine was a Xerox Docutech, we now have an Indigo digital press which uses liquid ink, but still applies heat to the substrate and a Ricoh 9200 as well as our offset presses. None of our books have any problems with wavy or curled stock. The ones in the attached photo were all produced on a toner based machine. I believe your problem is trying to print books commercially on consumer level equipment.

Before going down the duplicator route I would suggest you look at this site Exploriso: An Introduction to Risography | duplo.press, and particularly note the following

Disadvantages​

However, the Risograph also has disadvantages: The colors are not fixed as in digital printing after application of the toner by heat, depending on the color application, the colors may never dry, also like the printed image, compared to an inkjet—or digital printing (with four or five colors), appear very coarse, which makes the prints for fine applications with very fine grids very unsuitable. As mentioned before, the Riso is unable to produce wholly-owned duplicates of a printed image, the printed motifs look a little different in each copy, giving the whole thing a co-existential charm between contemporary do-it-yourself look and vintage appeal, whichever by application field may mean chance and disadvantage.

 

[Tradidi]

Virtually every commercial printer in the world is printing books on toner based machines without any issues of curling or wavy stock in the finished product.
We have been printing books for over 30 years, our first toner based machine was a Xerox Docutech, we now have an Indigo digital press which uses liquid ink, but still applies heat to the substrate and a Ricoh 9200 as well as our offset presses. None of our books have any problems with wavy or curled stock. The ones in the attached photo were all produced on a toner based machine. I believe your problem is trying to print books commercially on consumer level equipment.

I had the opposite impression from reading some of the other comments and threads on this site, and from talking to some people in real life, i.e. that even large/expensive production machines can have those wave/curl issues.

Looking at that picture, I can see the bottom book has a distinct wave to it.

Before going down the duplicator route I would suggest you look at this site..

I'm not thinking about that route either, hence the question in the OP about the ComColor.

 

[Magnus59]

I had the opposite impression from reading some of the other comments and threads on this site, and from talking to some people in real life, i.e. that even large/expensive production machines can have those wave/curl issues.

Looking at that picture, I can see the bottom book has a distinct wave to it.

No, definitely no wave, I have the book right in front of me, there's a slight lift on the cover due to the lamination.

I'm not thinking about that route either, hence the question in the OP about the ComColor.

 

[SoggyWinter]

I want to stay clear of laser based printers, mainly because of the paper wave/curl problems I've had with them. As for budget, I prefer between $5 and $10k (NZD), possibly a little higher if there's a good enough reason for it.

Production toner machines should have decurler modules that straighten paper, but at your budget, you'd best outsource and use your capital for business growth.

 

[Peterborough Print]

I've recently sold my Riso ComColor and now wish I still had it! It was a great machine for printing books and booklets - fast with no heat meaning flat sheets and reduced energy consumption.

The article Magnus59 links to refers to the Riso Duplicator range using stencils, not the ComColor inkjet range, so the comments mentioned in that article are not really relevant.

No, the ComColor is not great for envelopes, although Riso will say it is! Head crashes are a big problem with envelopes, but you have not said you want to print envelopes, so again I would say this is not relevant to your needs.

The only issue I would say you need to be aware of is that it will only print on uncoated stocks and the image quality is not quite as good as a toner based machine. Other than that, for perfect bound books, it's a great machine. Like all machines, stick to what they are good at, and you will be fine.

So regret selling mine now

 

[bill kahny]

We have a Riso com color in house, great machine its our everyday office color machine. I run occasional jobs on it even envelopes. Fast cheap but color is only ok. Ran large runs of a customers statements on it for a few years, cheap fast color. Office quality!

 

[Stickman42]

Hence my question, what have other people experienced with the ComColor printers? Are they all as bad as @SPP-ShaneC described it?

I had a ComColor 9050 years ago and can concur that my experience was as bad as @SPP-ShaneC described in the linked thread. I intended on using that machine for envelopes (jams, head crashes, dirty rollers) and short run full color book printing (barely so-so image quality). We tried to make it work for a good while, but eventually gave up. Newer models may have improved but I cannot comment on them.

I had the opposite impression from reading some of the other comments and threads on this site, and from talking to some people in real life, i.e. that even large/expensive production machines can have those wave/curl issues.

Looking at that picture, I can see the bottom book has a distinct wave to it.

Attached are pics of a full delivered stack from my Xerox Nuvera just today. It is 60# Husky offset opaque, 12.5" x 18.5" grain long cut from 25" x 38" sheets, printed 2-sided in black toner only. The finished book will be 6" x 9" and is printed 4-up on the aforementioned sheets, cut to singles, perfect bound and 3-knife trimmed. The sheets are not perfectly flat. The image quality is much better than my current 600 dpi inkjet printer can produce. I cannot recall a customer complaint regarding paper waves.

As I mentioned in your other thread, it seems you would like to achieve perfectly flat sheets with very good image quality on a somewhat limited budget. I think that a B/W laser printer is the best option. You may have to go through several models before you come across one that outputs sheets as flat as you want them to be. Good luck - let us know how it goes and keep asking questions!

 

[Tradidi]

You may have to go through several models before you come across one that outputs sheets as flat as you want them to be.

I was wondering about that. Since I only tried one laser printer, perhaps I will get better results with another machine. Thanks for making the effort of replying and taking that picture.

 

[gregbatch]

Virtually every commercial printer in the world is printing books on toner based machines without any issues of curling or wavy stock in the finished product.
We have been printing books for over 30 years, our first toner based machine was a Xerox Docutech, we now have an Indigo digital press which uses liquid ink, but still applies heat to the substrate and a Ricoh 9200 as well as our offset presses. None of our books have any problems with wavy or curled stock. The ones in the attached photo were all produced on a toner based machine. I believe your problem is trying to print books commercially on consumer level equipment.

Before going down the duplicator route I would suggest you look at this site Exploriso: An Introduction to Risography | duplo.press, and particularly note the following

Disadvantages​

However, the Risograph also has disadvantages: The colors are not fixed as in digital printing after application of the toner by heat, depending on the color application, the colors may never dry, also like the printed image, compared to an inkjet—or digital printing (with four or five colors), appear very coarse, which makes the prints for fine applications with very fine grids very unsuitable. As mentioned before, the Riso is unable to produce wholly-owned duplicates of a printed image, the printed motifs look a little different in each copy, giving the whole thing a co-existential charm between contemporary do-it-yourself look and vintage appeal, whichever by application field may mean chance and disadvantage.

These disadvantages refer to Risograph prints, not Comcolor inkjet.

 

[gregbatch]

If you really want to go with inkjet over toner, I would recommend an Epson Workforce Enterprise Monochrome printer. Much higher quality print than Riso Comcolor. If you aren't doing color, don't pay for a color machine. Not as fast as Comcolor - 100ppm. Most book printers use Canon monochrome printers.

 

[SoggyWinter]

If you really want to go with inkjet over toner, I would recommend an Epson Workforce Enterprise Monochrome printer. Much higher quality print than Riso Comcolor. If you aren't doing color, don't pay for a color machine. Not as fast as Comcolor - 100ppm. Most book printers use Canon monochrome printers.

How is the Epson for the support experience and ink cost?

 

[Tradidi]

I just got a quote from the local Epson dealer for the Workforce Enterprice WF-M21000. It's much higher than an ex-lease ComColor, but the main disadvantage I found is that the ink is way too expensive. Which I found surprising, given that the ink for my little Epson Ecotank printer is very cheap.

As a comparison, these are the figures I got quoted and/or calculated (for black only):

ComColor: $520 per litre, works out at an estimated 1 cent per A4 page.
Epson Enterprise: 1.5 cents per A4 page, based on a 48 month lease.
Epson EcoTank: $224 per litre, works out at an estimated 0.37 cents per A4 page.

(I suspect the lease company is trying to get rich by selling the ink at a substantial markup)

The only thing stopping me from buying a few cheaper EcoTank printers and running them in parallel is the fact that every now and again there is a small glitch in the printing. I assume this is because they have a shuttle print head, while the bigger models have a stationary head.

I am planning on giving a laser photocopier another try, as long as I can get the paper to be reasonably flat and unaffected by the heat.

 

[Tradidi]

Most book printers use Canon monochrome printers.

Seeing that Canon is the preferred make for those printers, would it be safe to assume they also make the better photocopiers? I'm investigating that route as an option.

 

[Magnus59]

Seeing that Canon is the preferred make for those printers, would it be safe to assume they also make the better photocopiers? I'm investigating that route as an option.

For a reliable workhorse of a photocopier, I would lean towards Konica Minolta

 

[gregbatch]

Seeing that Canon is the preferred make for those printers, would it be safe to assume they also make the better photocopiers? I'm investigating that route as an option.

Not necessarily a better copier, just more suited for the task. To be specific, book printers use the varioPRINT line. This is technology from Océ that uses less heat and more pressure. It produces print that looks close to offset. I assume that the lower heat is a factor as well. That said, you MIGHT get a used machine in your price range. Just be sure you can get support. You could do very well with monochrome printers from Konica Minolta and Ricoh as well.

With Ricoh, they offer refurbished machines under their GreenLine program. You get a rebuilt engine that is treated like a new machine with 0 on the meter. The click charges are like a new machine as well. The other components like paper tray and finishers are used. Back in 2022 we were quoted a little over $11K for an 8100 with vacuum trays and booklet finisher. Clicks were about half a cent. We have two GreenLine 9100s and they serve us well for a fraction of the price of a new machine.

With ANY machine, support is the most important factor in your decision. The best machine is worthless if you can't get proper support.

 

[gregbatch]

As a comparison, these are the figures I got quoted and/or calculated (for black only):

ComColor: $520 per litre, works out at an estimated 1 cent per A4 page.
Epson Enterprise: 1.5 cents per A4 page, based on a 48 month lease.
Epson EcoTank: $224 per litre, works out at an estimated 0.37 cents per A4 page.

Way too high for the Epson. Your best cost per click with a small investment in equipment is going to be toner based. Keep in mind that most clicks on toner machine are for A3, so you are typically around .0025 USD per A4 running 2-up.

 

[Tradidi]

Thanks @gregbatch (and everyone else) for the replies. While I have no doubt you know what you're talking about, there's just one issue that changes everything in my situation: NZ is a small place, with limited options and unlimited price tags. Given that the varioPrint, while available in NZ, is outside of my budget, and the the cheaper laser based copiers/printers all seem to have the paper wave/curl issues (I just had an HP tested, same issue) I am back to square 1, and it looks like the ex-lease ComColor 7150 might be my best option for increasing productivity.