buying a new low-to-mid production b/w printers

[nirupakah]

we are about to get three new b/w printers, expecting to make around at least 250k/month on each (and probably not more than 500k). the new machines should replace two xerox nuvera 120 printers we have had since 2005 and one oc̩ varioprint 2090. We do need versatility Рprinting text as well as images in good quality; we use mostly light weight stock (uncoated 80 gsm and coated 90-100 gsm); very precise front/back registration in duplex is necessary (for SRA3 size paper). no need for inline finishing. on the other hand, the more paper trays and inserters available the better.
first I have looked at the Xerox 4127 printer with freeflow rip (although I hate it and definitely would prefer EFI Fiery, but there is no 4127 with EFI installed in our area...), but I was very disappointed with the print quality, also the machine is “too plastic” (meaning not very well built and probably not very durable), basically a very fast office printer I would say, not to mention the RIP with practically no functionality... when I went to test it most of the jobs I sent to print would not even get through the engine... so this machine seems to be out of picture now.
we had to move a bit higher in the xerox portfolio – to the new generation nuveras, which I am afraid are kind of too much (and too pricy) for us today since the volumes have dropped down in the last years, but as we have quite good relations with xerox (most of our printers/presses are xerox), we wanted to give them a chance to stay in the game... in my eyes, however, nuvera is still “too plastic” and i do not believe the new generation models have been so much improved compared to our first-generation pieces and I would not expect that future will be any different from the current state – which is characterised by the xerox technicians visits on daily basis... Or am I wrong. What about image quality comparison Xerox nuvera vs. Océ Varioprint DP?
another candidate is the new Océ Varioprint DP 135; here it was quite the opposite, I was very impressed by this printer when I saw it in action. Every job sent in went out smoothly, and the print quality was brilliant. as for the front end, there is no external controller available, but the internal one can work with print queues and hotfolders so that is good.
lastly i went to see a konica-minolta bizhub 1051 (although we would consider the 1200 version). it seems like a well-built and durable machine. the controller is internal and there are no queues or hotfolders available as far as I know. the output I got did not seem so good to me, and although I think it could be corrected by adjusting the engine, I would expect more ”normal” results out of the box, the toner density was really off, really abnormally high.
from the tech specifications, all the demonstrations and views and opinions gathered on this forum and elsewhere I see it as a battle between two different approaches: Océ’s CopyPress or DirectPress technology and classic electrophotography. And somehow I cannot find many advantages of electrophotography... all I see or have seen are potential or real problems while with Océ (and Copy/DirectPress) there is only one issue(and lots of advantages) for me and I do not know if it is real or not: the smearing of the toner. In darker fully-covered areas almost every (heavier) touch of the surface is visible, although I have not noticed any toner adhering to my fingers... I have known about this issue since we have Océ printers and we have noticed problems in off-line finishing: the toner would adhere to the wheels of the folding and collating machines etc. and then it would transfer from them to subsequently coming papers.
so, here is my question: can anyone either confirm or prove false that this issue is real with Océ Varioprint DP line printers? (someone running output from a directpress machine through a cp bourg bookletmaker BMe or something like that?)
any other opinions, advices or thoughts on the listed printers (as well as suggestion for listing another suitable printer – I was looking at some canon printers too, not very thoroughly though) and their comparison are very welcome and appreciated.
thank you.

 

[halmac]

We have an Océ 4120 and we have a suction-fed Morgana folder and we have no issue with toner. But we used to have a friction-fed Baum folder which was a nightmare and we had marking with that. We print only books and booklets and bind them on our perfect binder or saddle stitch machine. We have had no problems with marking. Océ Varioprints print the best solid blacks. Why don't you get the new 6320 Ultra?

 

[[email protected]]

Can't comment on Oce units as we have no familiarity. However:
1- We have a Xerox 4112 which we got to replace the older Xerox 4110 (same basic unit). Quality is terrific (2400 dpi) & machine is reliable for 200k-400k per month. We put 15 million on it before replacing with the newer unit. This unit also has the "external Fiery RIP" which offers more versatility than the built in controller. The 4127 is the same unit with speed increased so there is no reason to think the Fiery will be a problem. However, experience tells us that in the past (e.g. Canon) we have seen machines lose both quality & reliabilty when a faster speed model is introduced. Having said this, remember that this is a mid-production machine & can't be expected to be as robust as the Nuvera, etc.
2- We also have an older Nuvera 120 production & would have no reservations about reliability of the newer units, especially given the terrific service support from Xerox. We have decided to keep our Nuvera for a while longer since black & white volume is not growing. We have looked at the new Nuvera & the Konica 1200 as alternatives, but I am not sold on the Konica quality, consistency, reliability, or quality of service. The Canon 1110/1125 series has terrfic quality but concerned about reliability & also price.

 

[nirupakah]

thanks for your input guys. to answer halmac's question about 6320 ultra, it is simply too expensive for us at the moment and we dont have the volumes. also, i think it is a good idea to have two slower printers rather than just one super fast - when it goes down you have no back-up... unless you have two 6320 ultras...
now we are practically decided for océ dp line: it is enviromentally friendly (more than 3-times lower power consumption than nuvera!, no ozone, is much quieter too), the paper path is simpler (so there is lower risk of jamming), can print on more substrates, allows you to correct registration for duplex, skew etc. for each paper, has localised user interface, requires less room, print quality is less affected by surrounding conditions, and i find the print quality a bit better (in some case a lot better)...

 

[[email protected]]

I think it might be best to put more emphasis on the quality of service for each brand in your area. There's never really a majority opinion when it comes to which make or model when comparing opinions across the nation and/or other countries.

For instance, you say you noticed problems in the Konica Minolta line but others praise the Konica Minolta line. I do know from personal experience that any machine will require adjustments based on what you're going to be printing and running through the machine.

It all comes down to is your technician knowledgeable enough to know how to properly tweak the machines he/she is working on.

----a few other thoughts----

I'm thinking the Oce's, Canon imagepresses, or KM bizhubs will give you the most paper flexibility. I don't see the xerox 4112/4127/etc., as being the best choice for special stocks.

I too think the Nuveras are too plasticy and pricey for what they are; I'd take a docutech over a nuvera although nuveras have higher res. I wouldn't be impressed by the 2400x2400 dpi xerox claims. there's a good youtube video that shows the impossible physics behind their claim.

Some say that Oce' can be a problem in finishing equipment with the toner, some do not. Oce uses a slightly different "fusing" process from other brands. I believe you'll be fine no matter what machine or brand if you're using air-fed finishing equipment.

The most important thing you can do is come up with some tricky sample files and substrate jobs and run them vigorously on test equipment. Make sure you get to run them and don't send the files ahead of time. You want to see how long or difficult a tweaking process is to get the machine being demo'd to print right.

 

[MARSGOLD]

Talking about registration, it's better to use a VP 6000(why not trying to get a second hand, it's much cheaper). Registration is perfect with the VP6000(never seen better).
But it's true that the price have gone up a lot the last few years? When we buy it, a 6150 was available and it was much much cheaper than the actual 6250/6320 (not much price difference with the nuvera).

I have known about this issue since we have Océ printers and we have noticed problems in off-line finishing: the toner would adhere to the wheels of the folding and collating machines etc. and then it would transfer from them to subsequently coming papers.
The problem still remain with the DP line. As halmac said, you can avoid this(but not always completely)with a suction off line system.

Another problem appear if you use a lot of preprinted paper as the machine get very dirty inside(I should explain it in another way but can't found the words in english) and you get quality problems with more intervention of the technicians.

I have to decide this weekend if I take a Dp line also(120). Was thinking to take a second xerox 4112 but they are way too much quality problems with this machine(I have to check all the pages that get out of the machine and reject +-1% of them for very serious quality problems(it would be 5 to 10% if I was taking in count the small quality problems)). It's sad as it's much cheaper than the DP line(and not a little)

 

[usher]

hi guys

im currently looking at the xerox nuvera 120 vs konica minolta 1250,
i do abt 150k duplexed 10x14 (300k images per month) and do some pre printed inerts to, what would you recommand? how is the konica service? i currently have a xerox 4595 but its giving me way to much problems, i never tried anything but a xerox? any recomendations?

 

[MARSGOLD]

The 4000 serie from xerox got some serious problems, it seems. And they came from conception so no solution can be found.
Some technicians are saying that the recent version of the nuvera have also a lot of problems.
I wonder if one of the problem is not coming from the toner(who is made in china, for what I know)but I am not too sure.
At least, xerox is not making any problem at replacing anyting in the 4112. But the same problems keep coming again and again(way too often). I suppose you get the same problems with the 4595.


The konica minolta seems nice but I will receive the machine in mars or april. Till then, I can't give any advice exept that the konika minolta 1250 is much more cheap. Hope everything will run smootly.
You should ask konika minolta to give you an adress of someone who have a machine and go have a look. Probably the best way to know and be sure!

 

[Craig]

I hope they fixed the density issues with the 1250, our 1200 can't print a solid to save itself unless they put in a new shot of developer. Oh by the way try running vellum cover through it with any type of solid coverage. (Even large text).

 

[MARSGOLD]

I hope they fixed the density issues with the 1250, our 1200 can't print a solid to save itself unless they put in a new shot of developer. Oh by the way try running vellum cover through it with any type of solid coverage. (Even large text).

They were cristal clear when they talk about special paper. Best to avoid it as the result is poor(at best).
Better to use an OCE for that kind of job!(but they have also other problem. If you have to do some offline work on the printed paper, as an example)
No perfect printing device exist, but some are worse than other.
Exept your problems with solid, the rest is allright? (after how many print the problem appear?)

Regards
MARS

 

[Craig]

Except for that it runs like a top. I'm wondering if the service even knows what they are doing sometimes. Their suppose to be the 3rd largest in the country, and train other KM dealers... kinda scarey!

 

[MARSGOLD]

@ Craig : Thanks for your answer.
The service seems good in Belgium but I will see once they are in action if they are as good as they seems.
You always have better technicians than other. And of course, the best one are not always the best one for their boss(as they tend to replace part of the system more easily(but only when it's necessery, of course))

 

[[email protected]]

If want to, take a look at the Ricoh line of 907/1107/1357 units they all can be fronted with Fiery rips. You might also take a look at the Digimaster line which is also sold by Ricoh. Copiers, Printers, Multifunctional Color Copiers, Color Printers, Production Printing, Management Document Services, IT Services | Ricoh USA

disclaimer - I work for Ricoh

 

[MARSGOLD]

The main problem in europe is that ricoh is also printing directly for customer and get caught more than once stealing customer from his customer. You can understand that most printing companies try to avoid ricoh as much as possible till this happened.