C500 stop gap?

[Bikerbob]

Hey people, my first post.

We are a traditional printer (sheet fed litho) and we are in a transition, we have a bizhub 600 for b&w basic work, but nothing else for digital print.

We outsource all our digital at the moment, and the volumes on a year have gotten to the point that we can cover the cost of a machine in house now, we know the advantages of control over costs, colour, quality. We know we will make a better % doing it in house and we have a person (myself) there with time enough in the day to do this.

The C500 we are being offered is on a month to month - couple of hundred and a colour click thats ok and a same with the b&w for the month to month commitment (no where near what you would get with a long term commitment) that we will make more than outsourcing.

But I look at this as a great chance to learn the front end (Fiery rip) and we can continue our transition while being able to learn and eliminate the curve to moving into a current gen machine when we have the organization and systems in place to do so.

Volumes are not an issue at the moment, output quality is.

Is the toner on this machine matte or gloss?

I will get several of the jobs we outsource now and try them on this machine before we install it, so that we have work for this machine to justify the install. If successful I think this is something we will do.

From what I have described - can anyone give me an argument why this is not a good stop gap move to a current xerox 700 or c901 or C9000 etc...

Thanks for any input.

James

 

[Craig]

Volumes are not an issue at the moment, output quality is.

If that's the case re-think this model, this is only business color. Great for pie charts though.

 

[Bikerbob]

Well I guess I can judge that when I get samples printed.

So your saying this would not pass for a colour business card, or a colour flyer? I guess I will take output from the what I outsource now, and also compare to that.

Our business model is litho with digital to support, I dont see this as a long term fix, but are you saying in MOST situations you will not be able to pass the output of this machine off?

maybe this is something I can only decide with my own testing.

Trying to be objective.. is there any determined after use ISSUES with a C500? Consistency? Registration? weights and types of stock? and by issue I mean not living up to what they claim the machine CAN do?

James

 

[Craig]

James,
I have a shop down the street from me with a 500, we do some of their finish work for them from time to time. My observation is the colors shift quite a bit from first to last and the front to back and sheet to sheet registration can be off as much a 2mm in every direction. We trimmed out business cards that bounced so bad their 3/8" margin on some cards were 1/8" at top and 7/16" at the bottom, not to mention the skewing.

I'm not slamming the machine, just trying to give you a realistic input from one who has finished sheets from this machine. If you are planing on getting it just know the limitations and remember what it was designed for.

 

[Bikerbob]

I have seen that from Xerox 5000s and 700s (not usual though) and Ricoh and others.

I think that paper quality - cut and square makes a huge difference, and with thick stocks the need to re-load the stock and send a 2nd pass rather than duplex, makes a huge difference. Now the consistancy of the colour, well even the Rep who is pitching this to me is I think aware that this machine will not be a long term solution for us.

But through reading I think I have found a flaw in this deal - they have a machine with an internal Fiery - and I have read that only the external Fiery is able to use any of the optional graphics software to maintain and colour correct, sub colours if you have made an icc profile for a specific match. If I am not able to use any of this software I am not sure how much use this machine will be if I need to match a brand specific pink or green etc..

The Ricoh C720s and others that have a spectrometer system built into the output to recalibrate the colour on the fly so that it can be maintained looks very nice. We looked at a Xerox 8000 that could do this.. but the monthly on jumping into that machine is not something we can handle at the moment.

James

 

[GJOHN]

Bob,
The Konica Minolta C6000, 60 PPM Production machine, or C7000, 70 PPM Production machine, configured with a Document handler, large paper supply (7500 sheets), 100 sheet stapler stacker, and Fiery external controller with the spectrophotometer is perhaps a good start. If you need more information on this please email me at: [email protected] with your location.
Thanks and Happy new Year.

 

[Shaja]

I am the purchasing manager for an independent Konica Minolta dealer (not a sales rep), so I know the models pretty well. The C500 was launched in 2005 and replaced by the C5500 in 2008. You and your dealer will be able to get parts, supplies and support on it for some more years.

You are correct that there were a limited number of software tools available with the embedded Fiery as compared to the external Fiery, but both Fierys came with Command Workstation. I'd suggest visiting EFI's website to get the straight facts on its color management capabilities Fiery Command WorkStation 5

I hesitate at the age of the model. It's been discontinued now 2 1/2 years. If you change your mind and want to keep it for many years, you'll eventually have a problem with parts and supplies being available. And, just like an aging car, the cost to operate it is going to go up over time. But, as a stop gap while you build your digital business, that might work out fine. Still, you might want to ask your rep if they have newer used models.

 

[JayDA]

I put a few million clicks on 4 C-500s over the course of a few years, I would absolutely NOT recommend the embedded Fiery for anything requiring any kind of color management. I actually did ok with them once we switched to Creo's, buy they're temperamental, and you really have to dig into them to get the most out of them. They are definitely not a plug and play kind of box, they take some screwing with to get decent quality out of them. That said, forget about decent registration on cover stock or anything glossy, it's not going to happen. They were high maintenance machines when I had them, especially to get any quality out of the solids, we spent a lot of time cleaning drums and chasing random copy quality issues. But for simpler jobs that don't require heavier stocks or a ton of coverage, they'll crank it out.

 

[Bikerbob]

They were high maintenance machines when I had them, especially to get any quality out of the solids, we spent a lot of time cleaning drums and chasing random copy quality issues. But for simpler jobs that don't require heavier stocks or a ton of coverage, they'll crank it out.

So we have one job that is 5 1/2 x 8 1/2 and has a number of tab and or cover pages that have 80%+ coverage

Now the runs are usually only 25-50 at a time at the moment. (Manuals)

The rep was by yesterday and picked up samples - They seemed confident it could run these items, and for the moment thats what we are looking for.. and business cards etc..

We think we will be looking for a C6000/7000 in the future, and they are trying to help us to buy from them .. I get the point to the deal.

I missed on a purchase of a C500 with external rip for $3k.. might have been a good deal.. put the external rip on the service contracted one.. and use the other for retail colour copies.

James

 

[marktg]

I was told that the c500 uses the same print engine, even of the newer bizhubs. The difference is in the rip. I would assume if the print file is set up correctly in photoshop and sent to the machine, it would print similiar. Not sure about regstration or dublexing. Please correct me if I am wrong.
We print approx 6k, 11x17 full bleed, 100#txt gloss, 4/4 - 20% color, monthly.

So we have one job that is 5 1/2 x 8 1/2 and has a number of tab and or cover pages that have 80%+ coverage

Now the runs are usually only 25-50 at a time at the moment. (Manuals)

The rep was by yesterday and picked up samples - They seemed confident it could run these items, and for the moment thats what we are looking for.. and business cards etc..

We think we will be looking for a C6000/7000 in the future, and they are trying to help us to buy from them .. I get the point to the deal.

I missed on a purchase of a C500 with external rip for $3k.. might have been a good deal.. put the external rip on the service contracted one.. and use the other for retail colour copies.

James

 

[Bikerbob]

For those that responded.

Thanks

I have considered all opinions.

As this is a month to month rental with a bit higher click, I think this stop gap makes sense for us. It will do the work we do now, so I can make a better profit, show how we can handle and do this right in house, and this will help the team see the wisdom of getting into a better machine.

I will follow up with a how it went in a month or two.

Soon my questions will be where to go.. KM 6000/7000 Ricoh 720 - does Cannon do anything good right now?

by the way .. does anyone do colour envelopes on their machines? I was told just use a separate fuser unit, so that any marks dont pass to regular work, and you can get some really good fast envelopes out of a machine.

James

 

[acacia print]

We have just gone from being a small Offset printer outsourcing our digital to having a Konica C500 in house. It has the external Fiery and although it is not the best machine in the world it did a better job than I had expected and I am pleased I took it on. seeing as the amount of digital I sent out was taking up a lot of time in emailing files and then going to collect the job and then taking out another 1 or 2 sheets because there was a stuff up..... then I am very pleased to have a machine in house. It has helped us sell the idea that we are able to do digital and helped grow our market (slowly) worst comes to worst for us if the C500 wont do the job good enough we still have the option of sending it out which is no worse than what we had before the machine arrived. we now do almost all our business cards on it and a few booklets etc. haven’t had it long but glad we do.

 

[Bikerbob]

That is exactly the way I am looking at it!!

Having a hard sell with this traditional litho company.. I agree that sometimes lots of originals, and new operator, it would have been cheaper to send it out. But in the long term.. its the CONTROL of the job.. if I need to match a colour I can.

DO you use any of the upper end software for the Fiery? or just the command workstation.

Can anyone answer - IF I get the colour software with the specraphotometer, can I move this software and the meter to another machine if we upgrade?

James

 

[GusG]

Can anyone answer - IF I get the colour software with the specraphotometer, can I move this software and the meter to another machine if we upgrade?

I think all Fierys, internal and external, can use a spectrophotometer/densitometer, if your spectrophotometer/densitometer is compatible with a new Fiery then you can just connect it there.

I got an X-Rite DTP32 with my DC2060 and I've used that on Fiery X12s and on a DC 3535 with the built in Fiery, I just connect the X-Rite to whatever computer I'm running CWS on.

 

[JayDA]

You can use the ES-1000 or whatever device you get with any external Fiery, however I am not sure about the internal ones. When I had my C500s with the internal Fierys, I was never able to make them work. But then again, those were the Ikon days, and support was a little lacking....so it could have just been me.

 

[acacia print]

That is exactly the way I am looking at it!!

Having a hard sell with this traditional litho company.. I agree that sometimes lots of originals, and new operator, it would have been cheaper to send it out. But in the long term.. its the CONTROL of the job.. if I need to match a colour I can.

DO you use any of the upper end software for the Fiery? or just the command workstation.

Can anyone answer - IF I get the colour software with the specraphotometer, can I move this software and the meter to another machine if we upgrade?

James

We have just the "Command Workstation 5" I have not had a copier before and we are only just getting our inhouse graphic design propperly running. So we are on a learning curve. But it is well worth it, as like you say we now have the control we need to keep things moving and it also shows the client that we are a "propper" print company now. Even just the machine sitting there verses a blank space makes us look better than what we did. I am not sure if better software will help..? Probably it might, but I dont see a big need for it for us right now. I am now working to grow our volume so that we will be able to justify the next model up like yourselves. Then we should be humming. I did some work on it last night and went home smiling so that must tell you something.

 

[Bikerbob]

Well its in,

I would have prefered the external Fiery so that I could learn more of the professional software while we are still growing with this end, and not have to worry about it in the middle of a job.. but fine.

Colour is good, we run hvy stock mostly so we are keeping it as max 13" width so that we dont mark the fuser..

and I agree with the comment that just having it there, as an option is better. If I need BETTER I can still send it out, and when volumes dictate we are not locked into this so we can move to something bigger and better, and maybe keep this as a p4p machine.

Thanks for input people - have there ever been patches, or hacks that allow you to run more of the software on an internal that you normally only can on the exteral? or is it a pure hardware thing?

Also if I found an external on ebay for this.. can you get it reserialized for another machine without spending a forturne?

James

 

[GusG]

Also if I found an external on ebay for this.. can you get it reserialized for another machine without spending a forturne?James

I don't think you need to do anything to the machine to put on an external RIP as long as it comes with the right cables, just hook it up, calibrate and off you go.

On my Xerox DC 3535 I was running a CREO Spire external RIP which developed a problem, I merely connected the internal RIP from an idle 3535 I have standing using some cables from a Fiery X12 RIP (only because they were longer and so I didn't need to unscrew the internal Fiery from the machine it's on as this was a purely temporary solution) and I was back up and running in minutes with no other adjustments (except a calibration, of course).

 

[Cagey Veteran]

As far as swapping to an external Fiery it depends on which 'internal' Fiery you have now. Is it the true internal Fiery which is actually embedded inside the machine or the Fiery we refer to as the "Clingon" which hangs off the back of the machine. If it's embedded it will need to be disabled mechanically before you can connect anything else.
Also, there are no software upgrades or hacks for an internal RIP because it was designed for business color. Any addons are normally enabled on external RIPs with one-time use dongles and cannot be transferred to other devices.