C900 Vs. Xerox 700 vs. HP1050

[Mark Flanders]

Greetings,

The fellas upstairs are looking into digital presses, and I'm doing some comparisons for them. I have my own bias, but would very much appreciate input on the following machines:

Ricoh/Ikon C900
(yes, I've read the threads)

Xerox 700
(new machine between the KM and the 5000)

Hp Indigo 1050
(My preference and bias, but more expensive)

The key here is the ability to run 12pt C1S, (about 300 GSM) preferably duplexed. We run this stock: 100,000 4 color 11x17 1-sided sheets a month. I'm concerned about durability and downtime, and they're concerned about price. Other options?

thanks,

Mark Flanders

 

[lfelton]

Greetings,

The fellas upstairs are looking into digital presses, and I'm doing some comparisons for them. I have my own bias, but would very much appreciate input on the following machines:

Ricoh/Ikon C900
(yes, I've read the threads)

Xerox 700
(new machine between the KM and the 5000)

Hp Indigo 1050
(My preference and bias, but more expensive)

The key here is the ability to run 12pt C1S, (about 300 GSM) preferably duplexed. We run this stock: 100,000 4 color 11x17 1-sided sheets a month. I'm concerned about durability and downtime, and they're concerned about price. Other options?

thanks,

Mark Flanders

I'm no expert here (I've looked at HPs quite hard, but so far have stuck to Xerox & Konica), but a quick look at page 10 of the HP Indigo Press 1050 brochure states:-

Paper weight
Simplex, coated: 115-270gsm
Simplex, uncoated: 80-250gsm
Duplex, coated: 135-250gsm
Duplex, uncoated: 115-175gsm

As I said, I'm no expert, so it may be that you can run these machines "out of spec" with no problems.

Also, you have to bear in mind this is a series 1 machine, with a PIP half the size of a series 2. So they are pretty slow and I think you might be pushed to get out your 100K a month if you're on a single shift.

On the 700, I'm pretty sure it can't duplex 300gsm. You also need to remember that it's not an "AP" machine, so will slow down a lot at 300gsm. I can't find where I put the CED, but it really does slow down a great deal at that weight.

I've only seen the Ricoh at trade shows, so no input there I'm afraid.

I don't mean to rain on your parade, but I'm hearing reasonable volume and lots of heavy card in your description. That says to me that a Xerox AP machine and possibly a series 2 Indigo should be on your evaluation list.

 

[Craig]

Deep six the Xerox 700 and get the 8000AP, I run 12pt C1S and 100lb and 110lb gloss cover, 12x18 all day long, duplexed. You'll want something more durable than a 700. Also if the salesman tells you it will do something, get it in writing with the sales manager signing off on it too, or it's meaningless.

 

[X33]

for your volume, paper, etc ... I would look at the Xerox DocuColor 5000/7000/8000AP if you want a single unit.

if you decide for a Xerox 700, you might need at least 2 units to be productive.

 

[Internal_R&D_Analyst]

The service on the series one indigo machines like a eprint and ultrastream are ending at the end of the year. I believe the S2000 is not affected by this. You will get 1000 sheets an hour (16.6 a minute) running 1-up it would be double it you run 2-up.

 

[vwrome]

Ricoh also now has a Pro 550EX and Pro 700EX. They should fill the gagp for those tha don't need 90 ppm.

 

[Mark Flanders]

Thanks all. Good comments.

My HP guy tells me that they're not supporting the 1050 anymore, so it's Series Two or bust on the Indigo. I'm going to recommend they look at production level machines. 8000AP or HP 3500. Ikon is now selling a Kodak nexpress machine which is not based on the Canon. ("Kodak end to end")
Any reviews? the samples didn't look that great to me. Why would you distribute mediocre samples?

thanks again,

Mark

 

[InfoPrint]

One quite important question: What is the budget for this machine?

The 8000AP is probably more expensive than a Ricoh Pro C900 and the marketing folks are quite proud of their 300 gsm capability with rated speed. You might want to check that with a real installation though.

 

[Craig]

One quite important question: What is the budget for this machine?

The 8000AP is probably more expensive than a Ricoh Pro C900 and the marketing folks are quite proud of their 300 gsm capability with rated speed. You might want to check that with a real installation though.

From the info I gathered at GraphExpo, the C900 was in the ballpark of an 5000AP in terms of price depending on the configurations of course.

Just don't make the mistake of buying it because it's cheaper. You will need the service and support for a production machine as well. I'm not implying Ricoh doesn't have it (I do own one of their B/W boxes) it's just that Xerox, Kodak and HP have a different mindset then the rest. When you get into the production class boxes (sorry DC 2xx owners, this isn't you) Xerox from my experience is second to none.

 

[smatros]

none of the above stated can duplex 300gsm. x700 and ricoh can max duplex around 200g (x700 works ok at it, for ricoh i don't really know).

 

[[email protected]]

C900

C900

The C900 will auto-duplex 80#cover all day long, with great registration. You can sneak through some 100#'s auto duplex but most would be manual duplex.

 

[X33]

none of the above stated can duplex 300gsm. x700 and ricoh can max duplex around 200g (x700 works ok at it, for ricoh i don't really know).

The Xerox 700 can duplex up to 80lb cover/220gsm automatically; either coated or uncoated media

 

[Kingsfish]

for running duplex 300gsm on the c900, remember that you run 90ppm simplex, put it back in the drawer and run at 90ppm simplex again...work and turn baby.

 

[Craig]

for running duplex 300gsm on the c900, remember that you run 90ppm simplex, put it back in the drawer and run at 90ppm simplex again...work and turn baby.

That sucks when doing variable data... and get a jam! Been there, done it!

 

[Mark Flanders]

Yup. Done that myself as well on our HP S2000. It can make for some long days.
--
Had a meeting with Ikon, with their latest offering in the form of a fellow from Kodak, pitching their "Classic" Nexpress, as well as the newer S2500 Nexpress. Some interesting textured coating effects run "near line". Not all that thrilled with the color. It looked a bit flat compared to the indigo. Any comments?

mf.

 

[dexter26]

C900 Vs. Xerox 700 vs. HP1050

Hi Martin

I have sold all three of these machines and although I now work for a large Ricoh dealer, I cannot hnestly say that if you are running that volume and that weight then the best product to buy will be the C900.

The reason is that the C900 will run 300gsm duplex at 90ppm unlike the Xerox 700 or the Indigo both of which will slow down by around a 30-40% at the heavier weights. The only machines that can match this performance are the Xerox AP models but these tend to cost around 50% more than the C900.

I have also sold a Nexpress and whilst it can hit more pantones that the Indigo, it is more expensive than the C900 and a lot bigger so if you have space constraints then I would not recommend the Nexpress.

If you would like to me come over and speak to you about the C900 then call me on 07884 063347. If you have already sorted yourself out then let me know.

Cheers
Paul Dexter

 

[Internal_R&D_Analyst]

The reason is that the C900 will run 300gsm duplex at 90ppm unlike the Xerox 700 or the Indigo both of which will slow down by around a 30-40% at the heavier weights. The only machines that can match this performance are the Xerox AP models but these tend to cost around 50% more than the C900.

The indigo does not slow down ever, not for paper weight, and not for sheet sizes. The larger the sheet and the more up you run that's how you get more or less output.

 

[NYCtoSTL]

The Canon ImagePress 7000VP will not slow down on heavier media and may well come into your budget.

 

[Ensudo]

C900

C900

We've been looking at the 900 for quite a while and are near the point of walking away. We don't think we can get the support we need. The company is too slow.

 

[overtwo]

Just a side note. I run 300gsm duplexing on our Xerox 700 all the time. The only thing that will be slightly different is the ink coverage, which is very minimal (I can't notice a difference). All you have to do is load the 300gsm into one of the duplexing trays and tell the machine it's 177-220gsm. It's no big deal. Yes, it runs slower but...faster than manually duplexing it at 300gsm (depending on run size). Hope this helps.