Can You Please Test – Colour or Mono Click?

[Stephen Marsh]

I am not hoping for definitive answers, as it probably depends on the RIP/DFE, however some answers would be good…

If anybody is interested in answering how click rates are triggered, I have four test files in a 2mb .zip package for testing:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8ke2g0eh3i...st-x4.zip?dl=0

crops in separation black.pdf = is this handled as a mono or colour click charge?

crops in gray.pdf = is this handled as a mono or colour click charge?

crops in 0cmy100k.pdf = is this handled as a mono or colour click charge?

crops in rego.pdf = is this handled as a mono or colour click charge?


Please state your RIP/DFE make and model version and your printer/press etc. Thank you for your time and clicks!

 

[DYP]

EX-P 2100 Versant 2100

No need to run these, I can tell by examining the file if and how you can get black clicks.

crops in separation black - Appears to be black only and should give black click with any input profile selected, but if included in a CMYK job correct input profile for job must be selected and Gray & Black Processing must at least have Text/Graphics selected.

crops in gray - Same as above.

crops in 0cmy100k - Assign profile is Coated FOGRA39 (ISO 12647-2:2004). It must be selected as input profile and Gray & Black Processing must at least have Text/Graphics selected if combined in a color job.

crops in rego - Same as above.


These are such simple files, so I am not really sure what your asking here. Are these to be combined with a color job? I appear that is what your asking for but you don't state that. If in that case the color job must be color managed correctly and in all cases do not have Use embedded profile when present selected.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Just looking for confirmation of what I believe to be true. There has been some questioning as to how 0cmy100k crop marks are handled with colour or mono clicks.

For separation black and gray the click should in theory be mono, if the rest of the page also has no colour.

For crops and any content that is 0cmy100k only with no colour content, the job is registered as colour click. The RIP/DFE is not smart enough to know that the content is K only, it is treated as colour as the recipe of the elements is CMYK.

Registration colour is treated as colour. I probably should have had the page content setup as gray with the crops in rego.

No, each page is a job in and of itself, it is not being combined.

The files are simple because I require a simple test and clear answers.


Stephen Marsh

 

[DYP]

And the biggest problem is no profile was assigned to these files.

I had to figure that out, so how in the hell do you expect the rip to figure it out. If you don't know what the intention is to begin with it highly unlikely that you going to get the correct output. Once past the input process if the RIP see black a unequal percentages of CMYK because an improper profile was assign then there is no way you are going to get a black click. Generally most RIPs will recognize Registration as 100% of CMY and K regardless of the input profile assigned but I wouldn't chance if I can avoid it.

Beginning of rant.

What the hell is the problem with designers not being able to assign working profiles to their files. I get jobs in all the time like this and am just about to start charging an profile finders fee. Is it really that damn difficult to assign a profile. Last I looked the PDF exports in both ID and IL include this. And saving in PS does as well, but that does stop PDF, CMYK, or RGB files from coming in here with no assign profiles. So with RGB files I have to guess sRGB, Adobe RGB or something else. And guess what happen if I guess wrong. It may not usually be as noticeable with CMYK file but the problem is still there.

End of rant.

 

[kyle]

I wouldn't have assigned profiles in the test file either, since device CMYK seems most appropriate for the test. If he had assigned profiles, he would probably get a lot of false-positive color clicks from testers who didn't examine the file and take measures to avoid CMYK color management. In my case, those measures would have been to strip out the profiles.

 

[DYP]

I wouldn't have assigned profiles in the test file either, since device CMYK seems most appropriate for the test. If he had assigned profiles, he would probably get a lot of false-positive color clicks from testers who didn't examine the file and take measures to avoid CMYK color management. In my case, those measures would have been to strip out the profiles.

You're clueless, Device CMYK can mean anything and how are you going to set it as the source profile in the RIP. How do you know how I figured out what the source profile in the RIP would need to be set to Coated FOGRA39 (ISO 12647-2:2004)? If you set it to something else you won't get a black click.

It needs to be assigned in the file. I should not have to figure out what what the source profile needs to be set to.

 

[kyle]

DYP,

It looks like a profile is assigned, as an output intent (which effectively tags every CMYK object in the document).

Stephen,

The text in your registration test file is 0/0/0/100 CMYK, so that might get the same results as the file with CMYK crop marks.

 

[kyle]

DYP,

We must have posted at the same time - just saw your last comment.

You're clueless, Device CMYK can mean anything and how are you going to set it as the source profile in the RIP.

I would say the clue is in the name ("device"), meaning the specification of device values, which implies that color management is not desired.

 

[DYP]

DYP,

It looks like a profile is assigned, as an output intent (which effectively tags every CMYK object in the document).

In Acrobat if you look at Convert Colors it says DeviceCMYK. Only if you bring up Output Preview do you see Coated FOGRA39 (ISO 12647-2:2004). You can see with that simulation profile K is 100% and the RIP will have to use Coated FOGRA39 (ISO 12647-2:2004) as the source profile if you want a black click. The question with this file will the RIP setting "Use embedded profile when present" assign Coated FOGRA39 (ISO 12647-2:2004) as the source profile? Hopefully yes which is what PDF/x is design for, but how many people actually use that. You just have to do what ever it takes to get the RIP to see CMYK as CMY as equal percentages or K as K only and that depends on the source profile. I just prefer to use Coated FOGRA39 (ISO 12647-2:2004) in the RIP and remove all doubt. But I use Convert Colors to find the profiles used because many time more than one profile is assign in a PDF file.

 

[Bill W]

I tested these through 3 different strategies on our HP 6800 that uses an Esko "light" DFE. The DFE by default strips the file of any attached profile and then assigns the profile in the Color Strategy. The 3 strategies I used were a 7 color strategy that forces all images to be in CMYK but allows PMS colors to be in EG; a 4 color strategy that forces all elements to be CMYK; and, a 3 color strategy that forces all elements to be printed in CMY only.

FYI -1 I made a custom 3 color profile to use with the 3 color strategy, we are not using the canned Esko EPM, or 3 color strategy.

FYIp- 2 the Esko "light" DFE does not have provisions to separate RGB images into EG.

For all of you files I ended up with only black being sent to the press when I sent them through the 7 color and 4 color strategies. As expected with I sent them through the 3 color strategy, they were converted to 100% each of CMY.

 

[DYP]

DYP,

We must have posted at the same time - just saw your last comment.



I would say the clue is in the name ("device"), meaning the specification of device values, which implies that color management is not desired.

You better give up and learn before you dig yourself a bigger hole.

If you want black clicks in a color job you have to use color management. In the post following yours I outlined how that can be achieved at least on the latest Fiery EX RIPs.

Forget about your DeviceCMYK, as all I would know from that is, it is what ever profile was the default profile on the device the PDF was created on. And, that could be anything. I sometimes have files that come in DeviceCMYK and or DeviceRGB, so tell me what profile would I used to convert from to the output devices profile?

 

[Stephen Marsh]

DYP, as I originally stated in my OP – “I am not hoping for definitive answers, as it probably depends on the RIP/DFE…”

Your post and Bill W’s post show, there is no definitive RIP setup between different makes/models of RIP.

In your Fiery setup, when colour managed correctly, only 2 of 4 files are recognised as a mono click.

In Bill’s Esko setup, 4 of 4 files are recognised as a mono click, despite 1 file using 0cmy100k and one file using 0cmy100k+Registration!

Depending on the RIP controls and how they are setup, there are different possible results.

As I also said “The files are simple because I require a simple test and clear answers".

I would greatly appreciate it if others could try with their systems are report back results, however from a sample group of 2, it is clear that there is no definitive universal answer.


Stephen Marsh

 

[DYP]

DYP, as I originally stated in my OP – “I am not hoping for definitive answers, as it probably depends on the RIP/DFE…”

Your post and Bill W’s post show, there is no definitive RIP setup between different makes/models of RIP.

In your Fiery setup, when colour managed correctly, only 2 of 4 files are recognised as a mono click.

Stephen Marsh

I am not sure where you got 2 of 4. Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough but all 4 should be able to get a black click. You need to be more precise with your CM on the RIP with the CMYK files which I thought I explained.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

I tested these through 3 different strategies on our HP 6800 that uses an Esko "light" DFE.

For all of you files I ended up with only black being sent to the press when I sent them through the 7 color and 4 color strategies. As expected with I sent them through the 3 color strategy, they were converted to 100% each of CMY.

Thank you Bill, this was surprising to me, as I would have expected the RIP to be “dumb” and to cost the jobs built using 0cmy100k with a colour click as the colour model used was CMYK. It appears that this DFE is not dumb, it can actually recognise that the job content actually has blank CMY channels and only K channel content and the click charge is then costed as mono.

This is not how DYP’s Fiery behaves.


Stephen Marsh

 

[DYP]

This is not how DYP’s Fiery behaves.


Stephen Marsh

I just set all four of them up identical as if they were going into a color job. Process and Held them. Clicked on ImageViewer and all 4 show a Black separation only.

Tomorrow when I am printing I send them to the printer and check the click but I see no reason that they all should not show up as a black click.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

I just set all four of them up identical as if they were going into a color job. Process and Held them. Clicked on ImageViewer and all 4 show a Black separation only.

Tomorrow when I am printing I send them to the printer and check the click but I see no reason that they all should not show up as a black click.

Ah, I could not tell from your original reply and thought that you meant that this would be a colour click on the 0cmy100k and 0cmy100k+Registration.

I am very interested in the result, thank you for testing.


Stephen Marsh

 

[DYP]

Ah, I could not tell from your original reply and thought that you meant that this would be a colour click on the 0cmy100k and 0cmy100k+Registration.

I am very interested in the result, thank you for testing.


Stephen Marsh

I got to thinking what effect can I see in ImageViewer when changing Color Input settings. Keep in mind I don't know if translates to the printer or not. I will check tomorrow.

It made no difference what I chose in Color Input. The older Fiery's did not act this way, but then again I am only testing a simple single page file. Anything I chose (for all 4 files) in Color Input showed up in in ImageViewer as a Black separation only as long as Gray/CMYK/Text/Graphics was chosen in Gray & Black Processing.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

I got to thinking what effect can I see in ImageViewer when changing Color Input settings. Keep in mind I don't know if translates to the printer or not. I will check tomorrow.

It made no difference what I chose in Color Input. The older Fiery's did not act this way, but then again I am only testing a simple single page file. Anything I chose (for all 4 files) in Color Input showed up in in ImageViewer as a Black separation only as long as Gray/CMYK/Text/Graphics was chosen in Gray & Black Processing.

Appreciated. My understanding is that most people don’t leave this to chance. If they are processing a job with a colour cover and black only inner pages, they will direct the cover section to the appropriate hot folder and they will send the text pages that should be in mono click only to a hot folder or other print setting that will force black only output and a mono click. Most don’t wish to be charged a colour click when they have only quoted a mono click.


Stephen Marsh

 

[DYP]

Just checked in IV one of my color jobs with a color side and a black side which printed with 1 color and 1 black click, and changing the source profile ( to a wrong profile) made my Black sep only side 4 color seps. When the correct source profile is chosen which is how I always run these multi side color jobs with black sides the black side shows as black sep only in IV which results in a black click within the color job. In both instances Gray/CMYK/Text/Graphics/Images was chosen in Gray & Black Processing.

That is the way I have alway seen it work. Why your files always show up as a Black sep only no matter what the source profile is I am not sure. Is it because it is a black side by itself? Does PDF/X have something to do with it? Does the fact that DeviceCMYK showing as the assigned profile have something to do with it? All thing that need tested.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Keep in mind that has been a long time since I have used any Fiery software. I do understand ICC conversions, however I may not be familiar with your RIP controls and the outcome they have on a job. Please keep this simple. :]

If a source file has no ICC description, then there should be a RIP setting to use a profile as an assumed default for DeviceCMYK.

I don’t understand your statement of a “wrong profile” converting a K only input to CMYK.

It appears that you need to enable a specific RIP setting to handle gray/cmyk correctly, however I am not sure how this works with the correct or incorrect profile input.


Stephen Marsh