Carbon neutral?

[gordo]

Change happens. Progress is optional.

best, gordo

 

[mattf]

Change happens. Progress is optional.

best, gordo

Might adopt that as my tagline within my company

 

[John A]

Man made global warming is a myth.

Oh, did you know that plants thrive in a high CO2 environment and die off as CO2 concentration drops?

By the way, what ever happened to the whole world getting fried by the hole in the Ozone layer back in the 80s?

I predict this will become just another end of the world theory that never really played out in about 15 - 20 years. Either way, I suspect we'll have bigger fish to fry in other areas like natural resources running low and nut job leaders in 3rd world countries with warheads and missiles.

There you go, talk amongst yourselves now...

 

[gordo]

Man made global warming is a myth.

There's a great deal of (unpopular) science to back up your statement. The National Post newspaper up here in Canaduh has been running a series - "The Deniers" - on the the topic. Here's a link to some of their articles:
Climate change: The Deniers
Unfortunately human caused global warming has spun into a very large, profitable, industry with many government tax opportunities and as a result, I fear, it has developed a logic all its own.

best, gordon p

my print blog here: Quality In Print

 

[rbailleu]

how are we going to tax the factories in china and india to stop global warming. if you are going to tax a cow for farting then you better tax a chinese widget for its pollution. and that would be protectionist.

this year I would like a little global warming you should have seen my heat bill.

 

[otherthoughts]

Two words. Good luck.

Our society is not based upon a mindset of going backwards in terms of advancement and technology. The whole idea of society is to advance in thought, process, mechanics and the like. We advance these ideas so our society might become a better place.

Classic example: If we lived like our ancestors we would be living only to our 40's and marrying at 13. Not saying its wrong, but its a different mindset. Our life expectancy now is from 70's-80's and society as a whole wishes for a longer and healthier life. There is a reason before the industrial revolution there was only a few hundred million people on this world. Technology was not there to help us along in our daily lives as well as our well being. We only had a small grasp of what it could do, and today we have broadened that concept to feats my father and his father could not even imagine.

Moving backwards to "what works" will not solve what must be done. We have done the damage and we have created this society in the way it was shaped. We have to keep moving forward to insure our children and their children have a world that is liveable, sustainable and ripe for generations to come. Going backwards will only cause new problems, just like going forward will as well. I'd rather create something new and exciting that will help the world move forward in its advancement then go back to the stone ages.

Political views and mindsets have to change, and I think they will with this new administration. Granted, its the same people who ran the government back in the 90's, but the ideas that people want to hear and wish to interact with are changing. Lets just hope it changes for the better.

mattf,
Excellent points!

I merely meant to suggest that we take a look at what had worked before and couple that with the knowledge that we've gained along the way. For example, the fabulous Medical gains that we've made over infectious diseases and deaths during childbirth. At least in the Western World, that is. These two items alone are greatly responsible for the increased longevity we enjoy today. A third main factor is the food supply.

If one compares a chart showing human population growth during the last century, and a chart showing fossil fuel consumption for the same period. I suspect one would find the charts to be strikingly similar. Then one might like to add in a third chart, a chart of World food production for the same period, just to see if it bears any resemblance to the previous two charts

You see, I believe that it is the use of fossil fuels that brought about our human population growth as well as allowed for most of our gains in technology and medicine. Fossil fuels freed mankind's hands from the toil of the plow and agriculture. In the 1870's farming made up about 53% of the labor force in the USA with a total population of about 28 million. Today agriculture is about 3% of the labor force and the USA has a total population of about 300 million. That's a lot of freed up hands to work on science and technology.

To change subjects to Oil,
If the "Peak Oil" theorists are to be believed, then we have likely already consumed 50% of the oil on the planet, the easy 50%. That leaves us with the difficult to extract 50%. Which may mean that we will no longer be able to support the human population that we have today with their predicted decline of oil supplies.

Don't get me wrong here, I couldn't agree more with "mattf's'" vision for the future. Perhaps the most inspiring I've read.

I only meant to point out, how unwilling we've become to live the lives that our own ancestors enjoyed.

Just in the remote case, that mankind's lives might ultimately prove to resemble the lives of our ancestors more than they do the lives we live today. Not to suggest we go backwards in direction. Mainly just to add more diversity of opinion to the range of discussion.

Thanks for pointing out my shortsightedness and adding to the discussion "mattf"

Best Regards
Otherthoughts

 

[mattf]

mattf,
Excellent points!

I merely meant to suggest that we take a look at what had worked before and couple that with the knowledge that we've gained along the way. For example, the fabulous Medical gains that we've made over infectious diseases and deaths during childbirth. At least in the Western World, that is. These two items alone are greatly responsible for the increased longevity we enjoy today. A third main factor is the food supply.

If one compares a chart showing human population growth during the last century, and a chart showing fossil fuel consumption for the same period. I suspect one would find the charts to be strikingly similar. Then one might like to add in a third chart, a chart of World food production for the same period, just to see if it bears any resemblance to the previous two charts

You see, I believe that it is the use of fossil fuels that brought about our human population growth as well as allowed for most of our gains in technology and medicine. Fossil fuels freed mankind's hands from the toil of the plow and agriculture. In the 1870's farming made up about 53% of the labor force in the USA with a total population of about 28 million. Today agriculture is about 3% of the labor force and the USA has a total population of about 300 million. That's a lot of freed up hands to work on science and technology.

To change subjects to Oil,
If the "Peak Oil" theorists are to be believed, then we have likely already consumed 50% of the oil on the planet, the easy 50%. That leaves us with the difficult to extract 50%. Which may mean that we will no longer be able to support the human population that we have today with their predicted decline of oil supplies.

Don't get me wrong here, I couldn't agree more with "mattf's'" vision for the future. Perhaps the most inspiring I've read.

I only meant to point out, how unwilling we've become to live the lives that our own ancestors enjoyed.

Just in the remote case, that mankind's lives might ultimately prove to resemble the lives of our ancestors more than they do the lives we live today. Not to suggest we go backwards in direction. Mainly just to add more diversity of opinion to the range of discussion.

Thanks for pointing out my shortsightedness and adding to the discussion "mattf"

Best Regards
Otherthoughts

Its not shortsightedness, just a misunderstanding on what you meant by living like our ancestors. I'm guilty of that all the time when speaking about religion, don't get me riled up on that stuff

As you said, and your correct in this assumption, we created a society in which fossil fuels drove our productivity, efficiency and standard of living. During the creation of the American Constitution there was talk of comparing a society of "poor farmers" to "mercantilism", and as we know mercantilism won out. With the "poor farmers" mindset everyone is poor, but every has what they need to survive such as food, clothing and shelter. Mercantilism insures the constant production old, new, bad and good ideas. Of course bad ideas usually fail and the good strive on, as per normal capitalism methods.

The lives of our ancestors was completely different as I stated. However, as you pointed out, many things have dramatically changed in the past 200 years. Human population growth, food supply and finally energy consumption. There are a ton of studies and papers on food scarcity and the overwhelmingly "infinite" demand for these goods, great reads all around. What the whole subject gets down to is how to handle this growing problem. By 2050 our population will be over 9 billion. How can we handle that increase in the growing scarcity of resources? Can old methods of how we use to live make for better lives in the future? Maybe. The concept can be there but how we implement it to our current situation will be completely different.

Energy consumption has been on the forefront of issues in current events. The inflation of oil prices plus the tanking economy helped to fuel a lot of the current environmental efforts. Is that bad? Of course not. It promotes new ideas on how to produce energy. Many types have been in development for quite some time. Some examples are geothermal, wind power, solar power and so on. That type of technology will be the key to creating a different society. Can old ideas of how we once used energy create a different but better standard of living? Maybe, only time will tell.

 

[mattf]

Man made global warming is a myth.

Oh, did you know that plants thrive in a high CO2 environment and die off as CO2 concentration drops?

By the way, what ever happened to the whole world getting fried by the hole in the Ozone layer back in the 80s?

I predict this will become just another end of the world theory that never really played out in about 15 - 20 years. Either way, I suspect we'll have bigger fish to fry in other areas like natural resources running low and nut job leaders in 3rd world countries with warheads and missiles.

There you go, talk amongst yourselves now...

Ignorance is bliss huh? Wonder which side though.....

Anyway, yes you are correct that high levels of CO2 help to create larger and thicker concentration of plants. What does that have to prove with your argument? We are coming out of an ice age, of course there was less CO2 because there was less plants to eat it up! Global warming exists, the issue people have had is if the cause is human based. The reason why a lot of scientists believe that it is caused by humans because the rate at which the world is warming is a lot faster then anything that has been documented, both within human perception and from the study of ice cores.

Ozone layer issues are still around, just because you don't hear it in the main-stream media doesn't mean the problem is gone. I guess people would rather watch American Idol and hear about that then doom and gloom. Whatever makes the sponsors happy.

The study of the ozone layer and its depletion around Antarctica is well documented and scientific groups are still studying it. Just look up "Ozone Hole Meteorology" or "Ozone Forecast" or maybe "Antarctica Forecast". Stating that in 15-20 years we won't be studying and trying to improve our effect on what we do to the planet shows how much you know about science in general.

Nut Job leaders in 3rd world countries with warheads and missiles? Well shucks and all, I wonder where those weapons come from? I wonder which country has such a large and robust military and weapon spending program.....

Alright that's my rant for the day.

 

[otherthoughts]

"mattf"
"What the whole subject gets down to is how to handle this growing problem. By 2050 our population will be over 9 billion. How can we handle that increase in the growing scarcity of resources?"

I have my doubts, just as you do, that the planet can handle 9 billion people as the forecasters suggest represents our future. Moreover, I believe that the 6.7 billion of us existing today are too many.

Touché mattf,
You have cut to the heart of an issue that I would rather not have addressed so directly. Our human population is a very delicate subject to so many.

It is for exactly this reason that I included our human population when I suggested that what had worked in our past could be a guideline, along with all that we had learned along the way.

The best I might offer at the risk of offending some, is to say that if the 6.7 billion of us only had one child per family, in a generation's time, we might be only 3.3 billion. In another generation we might be 1.7 billion. I don't mean to offend those with more than one child by any means! It just seems logical to me that as our population grows, our problems grow.

I just believe that mankind's population is one of the larger players in mankind's dilemma.

Sorry if I offended anyone
Otherthoughts

 

[mattf]

"mattf"
"What the whole subject gets down to is how to handle this growing problem. By 2050 our population will be over 9 billion. How can we handle that increase in the growing scarcity of resources?"

I have my doubts, just as you do, that the planet can handle 9 billion people as the forecasters suggest represents our future. Moreover, I believe that the 6.7 billion of us existing today are too many.

Touché mattf,
You have cut to the heart of an issue that I would rather not have addressed so directly. Our human population is a very delicate subject to so many.

It is for exactly this reason that I included our human population when I suggested that what had worked in our past could be a guideline, along with all that we had learned along the way.

The best I might offer at the risk of offending some, is to say that if the 6.7 billion of us only had one child per family, in a generation's time, we might be only 3.3 billion. In another generation we might be 1.7 billion. I don't mean to offend those with more than one child by any means! It just seems logical to me that as our population grows, our problems grow.

I just believe that mankind's population is one of the larger players in mankind's dilemma.

Sorry if I offended anyone
Otherthoughts

I'm not offended at all. I have a different perspective that we should of started with from the beginning:

Have enough kids to replace you.

Yeah, I said it.

One couple, two kids max. The issues that comes up is some people out there WANT MORE then two and people remarry and all that fun stuff. I know a couple that wants to raise 6 kids, and they are already on their 2nd one year into the marriage.

There has been many articles out there, can't think of any at the top of my head, that has suggested that there are too many people on this earth. The earth cannot sustain the human population for long if we keep going like this. Resources will vanish and wars will be fought over those vanishing resources. Hmmmm, that's actually a killer way to destroy a species. Damn mother nature is good....

Besides all this doom and gloom, I still try to keep a positive view on the whole situation. Technology shall grow and progress will happen. New ideas will come through in order to handle these problems. The world my father grew up in compared to how I grew up is completely different. Different viewpoints, different mindsets and different priorities. The basic stuff is still there, but I'm not worried about the Reds dropping a nuke on my house

Will this be enough to create a world that I can be proud of to give to my childrens childrens children? I can only hope for that.

 

[otherthoughts]

I'm not offended at all. I have a different perspective that we should of started with from the beginning:

Have enough kids to replace you.

Yeah, I said it.

One couple, two kids max. The issues that comes up is some people out there WANT MORE then two and people remarry and all that fun stuff. I know a couple that wants to raise 6 kids, and they are already on their 2nd one year into the marriage.

There has been many articles out there, can't think of any at the top of my head, that has suggested that there are too many people on this earth. The earth cannot sustain the human population for long if we keep going like this. Resources will vanish and wars will be fought over those vanishing resources. Hmmmm, that's actually a killer way to destroy a species. Damn mother nature is good....

Besides all this doom and gloom, I still try to keep a positive view on the whole situation. Technology shall grow and progress will happen. New ideas will come through in order to handle these problems. The world my father grew up in compared to how I grew up is completely different. Different viewpoints, different mindsets and different priorities. The basic stuff is still there, but I'm not worried about the Reds dropping a nuke on my house

Will this be enough to create a world that I can be proud of to give to my childrens childrens children? I can only hope for that.

I can't argue with that!

The world is a better place with optimistic viewpoints like yours mattf!

Thanks for making this a more upbeat thread with your point of view

Best regards
Otherthoughts

 

[John A]

Ignorance is bliss huh? Wonder which side though.....

Anyway, yes you are correct that high levels of CO2 help to create larger and thicker concentration of plants. What does that have to prove with your argument? We are coming out of an ice age, of course there was less CO2 because there was less plants to eat it up! Global warming exists, the issue people have had is if the cause is human based. The reason why a lot of scientists believe that it is caused by humans because the rate at which the world is warming is a lot faster then anything that has been documented, both within human perception and from the study of ice cores.

Ozone layer issues are still around, just because you don't hear it in the main-stream media doesn't mean the problem is gone. I guess people would rather watch American Idol and hear about that then doom and gloom. Whatever makes the sponsors happy.

The study of the ozone layer and its depletion around Antarctica is well documented and scientific groups are still studying it. Just look up "Ozone Hole Meteorology" or "Ozone Forecast" or maybe "Antarctica Forecast". Stating that in 15-20 years we won't be studying and trying to improve our effect on what we do to the planet shows how much you know about science in general.

Nut Job leaders in 3rd world countries with warheads and missiles? Well shucks and all, I wonder where those weapons come from? I wonder which country has such a large and robust military and weapon spending program.....

Alright that's my rant for the day.

1) It is just a counterpoint to the idea that CO2 is the ultimate evil gas and we should all be punished (or at least feel very guilty) for any CO2 we emit. More plant life has a cooling effect on the atmosphere.

2) So in the MMGW (man made global warming) world, because earth is warming faster than it has in past history, it is automatically caused by humans? - many scientists also believe that the human impact on temperature is insignificant.

3) So why hasn't the ozone issue been plastered all over the headlines like man made global warming? I suggest it has nothing to do with American Idol or other distractions - otherwise the media wouldn't be waving the banner of MMGW either. Could it be because it doesn't monetize any particular political agenda these days? At least not like cap and trade and other new environmental taxation schemes. The ozone issue may still be out there but it just doesn't pay to play that game anymore - nor has it turned into the disaster it was predicted to be nearly 30 years ago. I am not a scientist, but I have good friends who are and I appreciate their ability to realize something isn't always what the media portrays it as. Also, I didn't say we won't be studying the planet in 15-20 years, just that this particular field will not be playing in the headlines like it is today.

4) I'm inferring that your "Well shucks and all" comment means you believe I'm too simple minded to understand how good and evil work (or perhaps you believe that the US is the root cause/enabler of evil in the world?) My point is Global Warming is not the biggest issue the world is facing going into this century (although to listen to some in the media it's akin to a Biblical flood about to happen that can only be stopped by not driving to work, not using electricity and not heating our homes.) I cringe when I think what the upcoming taxation policies will be on CO2 emissions (where will it end? breathing taxes?, body decomposition taxes? - because even death releases carbon into the atmosphere, etc...)

If calling me ignorant makes you feel better about your beliefs, go for it - I haven't found that tactic to ever do much toward changing somebody's viewpoint. We won't agree on this issue but it's important to realize that there are a whole lot of people in the world (both scientists and non-scientists) who don't follow the MMGW heard.


John

 

[Green Printer]

Most recently a large U.S. printing company bought 130 tons of certified carbon offsets.

What has changed by buying the Offsets?

 

[otherthoughts]

John A,

<snip>"My point is Global Warming is not the biggest issue the world is facing going into this century"
​

I agree, Global Warming may Not be the biggest issue the world is facing going into this century.

Perhaps you could elaborate on what you consider the biggest issues the world is facing going forwards?

Greater diversity of opinion is always welcome!

I think that your points are well worth considering.

<snip>I suspect we'll have bigger fish to fry in other areas like natural resources running low and nut job leaders in 3rd world countries with warheads and missiles.
​

I am particularly interested in your viewpoints on natural resources running low. Your second point is well taken, the only debate there might be the contention that only 3rd-World leaders are Nut-jobs with warheads and missiles

Best Regards
Otherthoughts

 

[gordo]

Most recently a large U.S. printing company bought 130 tons of certified carbon offsets. What has changed by buying the Offsets?

Aeroplan air mile rewards has a scheme to let you redeem your flight rewards for carbon offsets based on the amount of flight CO2 emissions it took to get you where you were hoping to go:

more info here: Aeroplan

And then there's this report on a quiet sun: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8008473.stm

gordon p

 

[Green Printer]

What is the carbon footprint for obtaining carbon offsets?
Is is possible to every recover the carbon footprint of selling carbon offsets?
How does someone not polluting selling his good carbon footprint to a polluter buying carbon offsets change anything?
The polluter is still polluting the non polluter is still not polluting and now the carbon is traded which has a carbon footprint to accomplish the carbon trade the net is more carbon polluting than there was when nobody did a thing.

 

[Craig]

What is the carbon footprint for obtaining carbon offsets?
Is is possible to every recover the carbon footprint of selling carbon offsets?
How does someone not polluting selling his good carbon footprint to a polluter buying carbon offsets change anything?
The polluter is still polluting the non polluter is still not polluting and now the carbon is traded which has a carbon footprint to accomplish the carbon trade the net is more carbon polluting than there was when nobody did a thing.

You just don't get it Green Printer, and you obviously never will!!!

It makes them FEEL better about polluting, and after all isn't that what it's all about!

Gosh darn it, we tried to stop polluting but just couldn't, soooo we decided to buy carbon offsets! Isn't that Wonderful!!!! We're now an environmentally conscious "Green" company!! Yeah Us!!!!!!

 

[Green Printer]

You just don't get it Green Printer, and you obviously never will!!!

It makes them FEEL better about polluting, and after all isn't that what it's all about!

Gosh darn it, we tried to stop polluting but just couldn't, soooo we decided to buy carbon offsets! Isn't that Wonderful!!!! We're now an environmentally conscious "Green" company!! Yeah Us!!!!!!

Finally a very good response that tells it like it is.

I have been doing this type of posting to get this kind of answer.

The message has been received and interpreted correctly. I can now stop fanning the flame.

 

[Craig]

It's only common sence... something that seems to be lacking in America lately.

 

[arsenal123]

if we all become willing to live just as our own ancestors had, the rest is a piece of cake! The knowledge we possess over and above our Ancestor's will make our lives seem effortless in comparison to their's. Just to be clear, I mean to include the human population differences that exist between us and our ancestor's as well.