Celix 4000 output problems

[inoxx]

Hi,

so we got a Celix 4000 with output problems. From left to right (leadscrew direction) the films are smaller.

I already cleaned the leadscrew plus the gimbal, so no old oil left. I oiled the leadscrew. But still problems.

One thing, when starting up the machine the traverse gives 7 out of the 10 times problems. Problems like traverse overspeed, DSP board failed, traverse going wrong direction and so on. So my thoughts are, this machine needs a new DSP board. Is there anyone familiar with this machine? And maybe can tell me if I am right?

Thanks in advance!

 

[maxon]

I have yet to see a failed DSP board. Check the leadscrew motor flexible coupling and retighten the securing screws. The carriage is heavy, disconnect the gimbal (2 allen screws securing the c-shape bracket) and gently raise the carriage a few mm to clean the v-groove and inspect the bearing pads. Pads come out easily pry them out with your fingers. Put some 6 ml of maccurat 32, slideway 68 or similar viscosity synthetic oil (use a syringe) in the v-groove and sloooowly pass the traverse 2-3 times by hand end to end to spread the oil. Twist the leadscrew by hand, should rotate very smoothly unless a bearing has seized, unlikely but not impossible. Now reconnect the gimbal, put back covers and reinitialize. Do you have access to the celix diagnostics. Where are you located. PM with details if you feel more confortable.

 

[inoxx]

Hi Maxon,

I am located in the Netherlands. At the moment I am not so sure that it is the DSP board but thoughts going to the leadscrew motor. I have disconnected the leadscrew motor and tried to initialize the machine but same errors as before. Errors are:


CELIX 4000 V01.09
Generated by : moon
Work directory : /tmp_mnt/cel/proj/scan/moon/usr/moon/C4000_01_09/gemini/sys/srs
Creation date : Wed, 15 Oct 97.
Creation time : 16:27

Spinner Fan detector not fitted
28/03/12 14:47:25 TIME:998 FILE:std_env_monitor.c LINE:967 (LOG)
Valid temp and volt logs
PLL values - a = 0, m = 39, r = 3
Display : EVT_MMI_FILM_PROCESSOR_NO_ERROR (74640000)
Display : EVT_BLEEPER_OFF (74620000)
Display : EVT_MMI_LOAD_FILM (74170000)
Display : EVT_BLEEPER_OFF (74620000)
Spinner Fan detector not fitted
PLL values - a = 0, m = 39, r = 3
Traverse Task Idle
Traverse Task Started
28/03/12 14:48:13 TIME:5897 FILE:traverse.c LINE:227 (LOG ERROR)
traverse fault encoder timeout
28/03/12 14:48:14 TIME:5910 FILE:std_Traverse_Initialisation_STD.c LINE:306 (LO)
Traverse initialisation failed.
28/03/12 14:48:14 TIME:5922 FILE:machine_status.c LINE:3330 (LOG ERROR)
Unexpected traverse status received 7




CELIX 4000 V01.09
Generated by : moon
Work directory : /tmp_mnt/cel/proj/scan/moon/usr/moon/C4000_01_09/gemini/sys/srs
Creation date : Wed, 15 Oct 97.
Creation time : 16:27

Spinner Fan detector not fitted
28/03/12 14:55:07 TIME:998 FILE:std_env_monitor.c LINE:967 (LOG)
Valid temp and volt logs
PLL values - a = 0, m = 39, r = 3
Display : EVT_MMI_FILM_PROCESSOR_NO_ERROR (74640000)
Display : EVT_BLEEPER_OFF (74620000)
Display : EVT_MMI_LOAD_FILM (74170000)
Display : EVT_BLEEPER_OFF (74620000)
Spinner Fan detector not fitted
PLL values - a = 0, m = 39, r = 3
Traverse Task Idle
Traverse Task Started
28/03/12 14:55:55 TIME:5894 FILE:traverse.c LINE:227 (LOG ERROR)
traverse fault encoder timeout
28/03/12 14:55:55 TIME:5907 FILE:std_Traverse_Initialisation_STD.c LINE:306 (LO)
Traverse initialisation failed.
28/03/12 14:55:56 TIME:5919 FILE:machine_status.c LINE:3330 (LOG ERROR)
Unexpected traverse status received 7
Traverse Task Idle
Display : EVT_BLEEPER_CONTINUOUS_MODE (74600000)
Display : EVT_MMI_MACHINE_FAILURE_GEMINI (743f0000)
28/03/12 14:55:56 TIME:5939 Fatal Error : [ 116] TRAV DSP ERROR
Traverse Task Idle





28/03/12 14:56:17 TIME:998 FILE:std_env_monitor.c LINE:967 (LOG)
Valid temp and volt logs
PLL values - a = 0, m = 39, r = 3
Display : EVT_MMI_FILM_PROCESSOR_NO_ERROR (74640000)
Display : EVT_BLEEPER_OFF (74620000)
Display : EVT_MMI_LOAD_FILM (74170000)
Display : EVT_BLEEPER_OFF (74620000)
Spinner Fan detector not fitted
PLL values - a = 0, m = 39, r = 3
Traverse Task Idle
Traverse Task Started
28/03/12 14:57:12 TIME:6450 FILE:traverse.c LINE:227 (LOG ERROR)
traverse fault leadscrew opr timeout
28/03/12 14:57:12 TIME:6461 FILE:std_Traverse_Initialisation_STD.c LINE:306 (LO)
Traverse initialisation failed.
28/03/12 14:57:12 TIME:6474 FILE:machine_status.c LINE:3330 (LOG ERROR)
Unexpected traverse status received 7
Traverse Task Idle
Display : EVT_BLEEPER_CONTINUOUS_MODE (74600000)
Display : EVT_MMI_MACHINE_FAILURE_GEMINI (743f0000)
28/03/12 14:57:12 TIME:6496 Fatal Error : [ 116] TRAV DSP ERROR
Traverse Task Idle


So now my guess is, that the motor is failing.

I got access to the diagnostics. Tomorrow I will check if everything runs smoothly but as far as I know it is. I already changed 1 bearing (the one on the right) because it fell apart when I took the leadscrew out to totally clean it (lots of old oil in the gimbal, so had to take that apart from the leadscrew).

The led in the leadscrew is burning red but not so very clear, it is almost not visible. Does that indicate it is broken?

Looking forward to your reply.

 

[maxon]

You should have access to engineering docs and training to atempt taking out the traverse system, operation both delicate and complicated. It appears you are just a more knowledgeable user. I hope you have correctly put back the spring washers in the right hand bearing block to provide adequate preloading to the leadscrew. Preload is important.
Check umbilical cable movement to prevent cables and tubing twisting on each other or rubbing. Correction: v-groove oil amount is 4 ml. Early model leadscrew motors were fitted with two incandescent light bulbs, later LEDs for the rotary encoders. The top most error you get is encoder fault it doesn't even sense the direction. I have a known good spare motor available but it's old style. At this point I say check all the above, try to replace the motor and if doesn't solve the problem get a Crosfield tech on-site to investigate further.

 

[inoxx]

Thanks again for your fast reply. I got the engineers docs, thats correct. I followed everything in there to clean the gimbal from inside. I didnt suspect the spring washer at the right, so they jumped out when I removed the drip tray. If I am correct they should be placed like )(

Odd thing is, that when the leadscrew motor is disconnected, I get the same error messages as when it is connected. Imagine why I thought it is the leadscrew motor. Other errors that we got were traverse overspeed (when initializing) and traverse moving in wrong direction. If the machine can get further without an error the initialisation takes a real long time. I think normal is about 1 to 2 minutes. Then it takes between 5 to 10 minutes. At this moment I cant get past the errors, its keeping up everytime now.

I will check tomorrow if everything is running smoothly and look to get a replacement motor. Do you need to change the v-groove pads on a regular base?

 

[maxon]

Yes you have a faulty leadscrew encoder (or the wiring to it), that's part of the motor. Never seen init sequences up to 10 minutes long, the traverse should be in phase loop mode - PLL locked. Keep an eye on the diag screen while trav initialises, debug mode with verbose on.
I only replaced the pads once on a machine, were badly scratched. Clean and re-oil the v-groove every 3 months especially if oil creeps out due to capillary action.
Oh and check the metal vanes for correct clearance to the hall sensor, possible a bent vane ?? The trav should never trip the reed limit switches under any circumstances.

 

[Gramann]

Yes you have a faulty leadscrew encoder (or the wiring to it), that's part of the motor. Never seen init sequences up to 10 minutes long, the traverse should be in phase loop mode - PLL locked. Keep an eye on the diag screen while trav initialises, debug mode with verbose on.
I only replaced the pads once on a machine, were badly scratched. Clean and re-oil the v-groove every 3 months especially if oil creeps out due to capillary action.
Oh and check the metal vanes for correct clearance to the hall sensor, possible a bent vane ?? The trav should never trip the reed limit switches under any circumstances.

Quick check of the lead screw moter encoder lamps.
Rap on the end of the lead screw motor with the handle of a screw driver two or three times sharply.
Sometimes a bad connection developes in the lamp connectors.
I have seen this bring the traverse back to life.

By no means is this a fix, merely a way to diagnose an intermittent encoder.

 

[inoxx]

I checked today and I am almost sure that the lead screw motor has died. I gave it a little tick with a screwdriver when starting up and no problem. When it was starting to image it failed again. Hopefully I can get a new motor quickly. Thanks you both for your help with this problem, I will let you know if changing the motor will fix the problems.

 

[inoxx]

Well, I have refitted another motor, problems are still there. So at this moment I am out of ideas. Hopefully you guys got a solution.

 

[maxon]

Confirm you have oiled the v-groove and inspected the traverse sensors and vanes. Put the machine in diag mode or shut down, disconnect/slacken the gimbal again then: 1- push the carriage, should move freely and very smoothly; 2- rotate the leadscrew by hand, should require an absolutely minimum of torque i.e. bearings, motor and coupling all checked in perfect condition and alignment. Reconnect gimbal and retest. If still unlucky I would suspect voltages, power amplifier or motor harness, get qualified assistance onsite.

 

[inoxx]

Odd thing is, is that two days ago I made 30 films without any problems. The next day I had problems again. Must say that when fitting the new motor it also gave errors, same as with the other one. But then after a couple of times trying it worked.

I have checked voltages on DSP board, I got -15 v, 5 v and 12 v (instead of 15 v). Its not coming from the SDM board, but from the i/o panel. I think thats work around, going to check the rest now.

 

[inoxx]

Everything is running smooth as it should. I have oiled the V Groove and manually moved the carriage to bring everywhere the oil. The sensors all look good and they work.

 

[inoxx]

One quick question, if the 5 volt is too low (its something around 4.77 volt) can that cause problems? Like the problems I got?

Last couple of days I also hear that the spinner has problems with holding its speed. So its starting and stopping repeatly and then can stop or just get up to speed and hold it. So I understand out of the engineers manual that the spinner and traverse are both on the 5 V.

When the spinner is idle I can run from diagnostics in Traverse section the initialisation over and over again and dont get any problems. So my guess is, that when both are running, spinner and traverse is asking to much from the PSU.

Looking forward to your reply.

 

[saifou]

my be the traverse is not in drum center this cose geometric problem or bearing damaget

 

[inoxx]

Anyone knows what kind of error this is? ----> ** Warning status. Status = 59

This is in diagnostics.

 

[saifou]

can u post terminal capture

 

[inoxx]

Hi saifou,

nothing really special there;


offset = 0
Spinner Fan detector not fitted
PLL values - a = 0, m = 39, r = 3
Display : EVT_MMI_OPERATOR_CONTINUE (74110000)
Display : EVT_MMI_DOWNLOADING_IMAGE_COMPLETE (742a0000)
Display : EVT_MMI_DOWNLOADING_IMAGE (74290000)
Display : EVT_MMI_DOWNLOADING_IMAGE_COMPLETE (742a0000)
Traverse Task Idle
Display : EVT_MMI_SCAN_COMPLETE (74400000)
Display : EVT_MMI_DOWNLOADING_IMAGE (74290000)
Traverse Task Idle
offset = 0
Spinner Fan detector not fitted
PLL values - a = 0, m = 39, r = 3
Display : EVT_MMI_OPERATOR_CONTINUE (74110000)
Display : EVT_MMI_DOWNLOADING_IMAGE_COMPLETE (742a0000)
Traverse Task Idle
Display : EVT_MMI_SCAN_COMPLETE (74400000)
Display : EVT_MMI_DOWNLOADING_IMAGE (74290000)
Traverse Task Idle
offset = 3750
Spinner Fan detector not fitted
PLL values - a = 0, m = 39, r = 3
Display : EVT_MMI_OPERATOR_CONTINUE (74110000)
Display : EVT_MMI_DOWNLOADING_IMAGE_COMPLETE (742a0000)
Traverse Task Idle
Display : EVT_MMI_SCAN_COMPLETE (74400000)
Display : EVT_MMI_DOWNLOADING_IMAGE (74290000)
Traverse Task Idle
offset = 3750
Spinner Fan detector not fitted
PLL values - a = 0, m = 39, r = 3
Display : EVT_MMI_OPERATOR_CONTINUE (74110000)
Display : EVT_MMI_DOWNLOADING_IMAGE_COMPLETE (742a0000)
Traverse Task Idle
Display : EVT_MMI_SCAN_COMPLETE (74400000)
Display : EVT_MMI_DOWNLOADING_IMAGE (74290000)
Traverse Task Idle
offset = 3750
Spinner Fan detector not fitted
PLL values - a = 0, m = 39, r = 3
Display : EVT_MMI_OPERATOR_CONTINUE (74110000)
Display : EVT_MMI_DOWNLOADING_IMAGE_COMPLETE (742a0000)
Display : EVT_MMI_DOWNLOADING_IMAGE (74290000)
Display : EVT_MMI_DOWNLOADING_IMAGE_COMPLETE (742a0000)
Traverse Task Idle
Display : EVT_MMI_SCAN_COMPLETE (74400000)

Setting Image length to 523mm
Op Image length to 541mm

feed 2211 op 5325 Display : EVT_MMI_LOADING_FILM (741a0000)
Display : EVT_BLEEPER_OFF (74620000)
Traverse Task Idle
Display : EVT_MMI_FILM_PROCESSOR_NO_ERROR (74640000)
Display : EVT_BLEEPER_OFF (74620000)
Display : EVT_MMI_CUTTING_FILM (74280000)
Display : EVT_MMI_LOADING_FILM (741a0000)
Display : EVT_MMI_FILM_PROCESSOR_NO_ERROR (74640000)
Display : EVT_BLEEPER_OFF (74620000)
Display : EVT_BLEEPER_OFF (74620000)
Display : EVT_BLEEPER_OFF (74620000)
Traverse Task Idle
Display : EVT_MMI_MACHINE_READY_GEMINI_FILM_PROCESSOR (742d0000)
Display : EVT_BLEEPER_OFF (74620000)
Traverse Task Idle
offset = 0
Spinner Fan detector not fitted
PLL values - a = 0, m = 39, r = 3
Display : EVT_MMI_OPERATOR_CONTINUE (74110000)
Traverse Task Idle
Display : EVT_MMI_SCAN_COMPLETE (74400000)
Traverse Task Idle
offset = 0
Spinner Fan detector not fitted
PLL values - a = 0, m = 39, r = 3
Display : EVT_MMI_FILM_PROCESSOR_NO_ERROR (74640000)
Display : EVT_BLEEPER_OFF (74620000)
Display : EVT_MMI_OPERATOR_CONTINUE (74110000)
Traverse Task Idle
Display : EVT_MMI_SCAN_COMPLETE (74400000)
Traverse Task Idle
offset = 0
Spinner Fan detector not fitted
PLL values - a = 0, m = 39, r = 3
Display : EVT_MMI_OPERATOR_CONTINUE (74110000)
Traverse Task Idle
Display : EVT_MMI_SCAN_COMPLETE (74400000)
Traverse Task Idle
offset = 3750
Spinner Fan detector not fitted
PLL values - a = 0, m = 39, r = 3
Display : EVT_MMI_OPERATOR_CONTINUE (74110000)
Traverse Task Idle
Display : EVT_MMI_SCAN_COMPLETE (74400000)
Traverse Task Idle
offset = 0
Spinner Fan detector not fitted
PLL values - a = 0, m = 39, r = 3
Display : EVT_MMI_OPERATOR_CONTINUE (74110000)
Traverse Task Idle
Display : EVT_MMI_SCAN_COMPLETE (74400000)

Setting Image length to 523mm
Op Image length to 541mm

feed 2211 op 5325 Display : EVT_MMI_LOADING_FILM (741a0000)
Display : EVT_BLEEPER_OFF (74620000)
Traverse Task Idle
Display : EVT_MMI_FILM_PROCESSOR_NO_ERROR (74640000)
Display : EVT_BLEEPER_OFF (74620000)
Display : EVT_MMI_CUTTING_FILM (74280000)
Display : EVT_MMI_LOADING_FILM (741a0000)
Display : EVT_MMI_FILM_PROCESSOR_NO_ERROR (74640000)
Display : EVT_BLEEPER_OFF (74620000)
Display : EVT_BLEEPER_OFF (74620000)
Display : EVT_BLEEPER_OFF (74620000)
Traverse Task Idle
Display : EVT_MMI_MACHINE_READY_GEMINI_FILM_PROCESSOR (742d0000)
Display : EVT_BLEEPER_OFF (74620000)
Display : EVT_MMI_DOWNLOADING_IMAGE (74290000)
Display : EVT_MMI_DOWNLOADING_IMAGE_COMPLETE (742a0000)
Display : EVT_MMI_DOWNLOADING_IMAGE (74290000)
Traverse Task Idle
offset = 0
Spinner Fan detector not fitted
PLL values - a = 0, m = 39, r = 3
Display : EVT_MMI_OPERATOR_CONTINUE (74110000)
Display : EVT_MMI_FILM_PROCESSOR_NO_ERROR (74640000)
Display : EVT_BLEEPER_OFF (74620000)
Display : EVT_MMI_DOWNLOADING_IMAGE_COMPLETE (742a0000)
Display : EVT_MMI_DOWNLOADING_IMAGE (74290000)
Display : EVT_MMI_DOWNLOADING_IMAGE_COMPLETE (742a0000)
Display : EVT_MMI_DOWNLOADING_IMAGE (74290000)
Display : EVT_MMI_DOWNLOADING_IMAGE_COMPLETE (742a0000)
Traverse Task Idle
Display : EVT_MMI_SCAN_COMPLETE (74400000)
Traverse Task Idle
offset = 0
Spinner Fan detector not fitted
PLL values - a = 0, m = 39, r = 3
Display : EVT_MMI_OPERATOR_CONTINUE (74110000)
Traverse Task Idle
Display : EVT_MMI_SCAN_COMPLETE (74400000)
Traverse Task Idle
offset = 0
Spinner Fan detector not fitted
PLL values - a = 0, m = 39, r = 3
Display : EVT_MMI_OPERATOR_CONTINUE (74110000)
Traverse Task Idle
Display : EVT_MMI_SCAN_COMPLETE (74400000)

Setting Image length to 210mm
Op Image length to 212mm

feed 883 op 2087 Display : EVT_MMI_LOADING_FILM (741a0000)
Display : EVT_BLEEPER_OFF (74620000)
Traverse Task Idle
Display : EVT_MMI_FILM_PROCESSOR_NO_ERROR (74640000)
Display : EVT_BLEEPER_OFF (74620000)
Display : EVT_MMI_CUTTING_FILM (74280000)
Display : EVT_MMI_LOADING_FILM (741a0000)
Display : EVT_MMI_FILM_PROCESSOR_NO_ERROR (74640000)
Display : EVT_BLEEPER_OFF (74620000)
Traverse Task Idle
Display : EVT_BLEEPER_OFF (74620000)
Display : EVT_MMI_MACHINE_READY_GEMINI_FILM_PROCESSOR (742d0000)
Display : EVT_BLEEPER_OFF (74620000)
Display : EVT_BLEEPER_OFF (74620000)
Display : EVT_MMI_FILM_PROCESSOR_NO_ERROR (74640000)
Display : EVT_BLEEPER_OFF (74620000)
Display : EVT_BLEEPER_CONTINUOUS_MODE (74600000)
Display : EVT_MMI_FILM_LOW (74510000)
08/06/12 16:59:14 TIME:185832 FILE:std_rewind.c LINE:1134 (LOG)
Not enough film in the cassette to do a rewindDisplay : EVT_BLEEPER_OFF (746200)
Display : EVT_MMI_REWINDING_FILM (746a0000)
Display : EVT_BLEEPER_OFF (74620000)
Display : EVT_MMI_LOAD_FILM (74170000)
Display : EVT_BLEEPER_OFF (74620000)
Display : EVT_BLEEPER_NON_CONTINUOUS_MODE (74610000)
BLEEP ON!!!!
Logging Temp/volt stats...Temp/volt stats update complete
|
**Warning status. Status = 59/
super>
super>
super>
super>

Now one thing I also checked was the laser power and that is looking like this;

This utility will read the correct values ONLY if the spinner is
running. Use ldrive, lthresh, readlm and readlf utilities if
spinner is stationary.
LASER ON.
laser power = 0.02 mW (coarse) subtract h/w offset
laser power = 0.00 uW (fine) subtract h/w offset
laser mod. current = 1
laser thres current = 0
LASER OFF.
laser power = 0.00 mW (coarse) subtract h/w offset
laser power = 0.00 uW (fine) subtract h/w offset
laser mod. current = 1
laser thres current = 0

So as far as I can see, the laser is not working. Now when I go to super and do a reset/restart everything is working again for a couple of days.
I think it has to do with the PSU, last time I checked (when everything was working correct) it gave on the 5V a reading of 4.91 V.
If I check with this message its only reading 4.69V (which I think is not enough). Am I correct?

 

[inoxx]

So this morning, the machine was running but not as it should be. It was in diagnostics. So it seems it had a restart somewhere. Again only 4.69 V. So I gave a tick with the back of a hamer against the PSU (located at the cabinet) and it was running again. I think PSU is failing.

Now hopefully someone can answer the following question; on the WA305 there is a pot meter with the following words above it o/p 1 ADJ. Can I screw this a bit up? So that I get the correct output voltage?

 

[maxon]

If you refer to the main PSU I wouldn't touch any of the trimmer pots. Well yes in theory you can play very gently left and right with the PSU hooked to resistive loads on main outputs instead of recorder harness, but if there's a bad connection inside or trimmer pot is faulty, the 5 volt rail will jump over the max limit and do more damage. Take out the PSU and have it inspected by a (very) knowledgeable service company dealing with SMPS's. However difficult, it is serviceable to a certain degree. Or replace it to be sure.

 

[inoxx]

Ok, so I need to find someone in The Netherlands who can do that. Thanks again for your advice. You think if the PSU is full of dust that it can fail?