Quickish question: what's the deal with non chemical plates--my place is thinking of perhaps switching over, and I really don't know very much about this type of plate. Right now we use thermal plates, which means they have to go through a heater and plate scrubber. Are chem free plates really an improvement? Any press issues etc... with these types of plates, and who makes them, and can they be used with our Trendsetter News imagesetter? I'd really appreciate some feedback, from those who use them, (love them or hate them).
Chem-free plates pros/cons?
- Thread starter plategirl
- Start date
TWinqvist
Member
We have many printers in Finland that are using Kodak Thermal process free plates and there has not been any problems with it. Plates are processed with Lotem platesetters and used in many different kind of offset presses. Plate is light sensitive before and after the process with platesetter, plates have to store away from the direct light. After it's been in press it's like any other thermal plate.
SteveAgfa
Well-known member
Dear PlateGirl:
You might want to check with your local Agfa rep.,
as 80% of the market's processless/chem-free and
low chem plates are Agfa's.
I'm not sure of the current qualification, but if your
TS News is 1200 dpi, then that may not be officially
certified - perhaps due to qualification priority.
Chem-free plates are not necessarily a drop-in over
your existing plate. What run lengths? UV inks? etc.
We talk about chemistry savings, but we often forget
about another key aspect - water savings. One of my
customers recently calculated that he has saved over
320,000 gallons of water a year by using Agfa's Azura
chem-free plate, over his previous traditional thermal
plate (in this case it was a popular non-Agfa, positive
plate).
Agfa's approach removes the variables, and has no
light sensitivity, nor on-press clean-out issues. I'm
sure your Agfa local rep. will be able to get you started.
Regards,
You might want to check with your local Agfa rep.,
as 80% of the market's processless/chem-free and
low chem plates are Agfa's.
I'm not sure of the current qualification, but if your
TS News is 1200 dpi, then that may not be officially
certified - perhaps due to qualification priority.
Chem-free plates are not necessarily a drop-in over
your existing plate. What run lengths? UV inks? etc.
We talk about chemistry savings, but we often forget
about another key aspect - water savings. One of my
customers recently calculated that he has saved over
320,000 gallons of water a year by using Agfa's Azura
chem-free plate, over his previous traditional thermal
plate (in this case it was a popular non-Agfa, positive
plate).
Agfa's approach removes the variables, and has no
light sensitivity, nor on-press clean-out issues. I'm
sure your Agfa local rep. will be able to get you started.
Regards,
Alois Senefelder
Well-known member
re Saving Water
re Saving Water
Hi Steve, saving water ! are we talking "Waterless Plates" or trying to print on a conventional "Lithographic Press" ---- with a Dampening System !!!!!!!!!!!
Regards, Alois
re Saving Water
Hi Steve, saving water ! are we talking "Waterless Plates" or trying to print on a conventional "Lithographic Press" ---- with a Dampening System !!!!!!!!!!!
Regards, Alois
SteveAgfa
Well-known member
Neither - eh.
I'm referring to the water savings from processing a traditional thermal plate,
vs. using an Azura closed-loop clean-out unit, that only uses a gum - no water.
And oh, BTW - didn't you invent lithography about 200 years ago?
I'm glad to see you are staying current, and improving upon your process.
Regards,
Alois Senefelder
Well-known member
Hello Steve
Hello Steve
Hi Steve, thank you for the nice "Comment " I'm now retired - the "Double Elephant" size
stones were getting rather heavy !!!!!!!! See if you can pick me out -- I'm some where in the Pressroom !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Regards, Alois
Hello Steve
Hi Steve, thank you for the nice "Comment " I'm now retired - the "Double Elephant" size
stones were getting rather heavy !!!!!!!! See if you can pick me out -- I'm some where in the Pressroom !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Regards, Alois
i need informatins
i need informatins
hello every one,its hot topic for me because i am about to buy a used 8up CTP so i want to know abou this chem-free plate,so please guys inform me if any THERMAL ctp can process the chem-free plate like AZURA? or no ? and the other types of CTP like UV,violet,etc cant process the chem-free pleat ?
thanks
i need informatins
hello every one,its hot topic for me because i am about to buy a used 8up CTP so i want to know abou this chem-free plate,so please guys inform me if any THERMAL ctp can process the chem-free plate like AZURA? or no ? and the other types of CTP like UV,violet,etc cant process the chem-free pleat ?
thanks
VladCanada
Well-known member
Hi Babylon
Azura - thermal laser sensitive plates, and if another Thermal CTP have enough Laser Power - why not?!
Sooner or later a new generation of plates have to appear on the print market for other Laser types ..........or another way -> the Thermal Laser Heads price have to go down and kill UV, Violet , etc CTPs
Azura - thermal laser sensitive plates, and if another Thermal CTP have enough Laser Power - why not?!
Sooner or later a new generation of plates have to appear on the print market for other Laser types ..........or another way -> the Thermal Laser Heads price have to go down and kill UV, Violet , etc CTPs
Last edited:
SteveAgfa
Well-known member
Babylon:
The best thing for you to do would be to work with your local Agfa rep -
even if choosing a used device elsewhere, to make sure you have a
device that is optimized or efficient with a plate like Azura. For used gear,
typically 40W Creo heads and above are certified. Of course other used
engines work well.. again work with your local Agfa agent.
Regards,
The best thing for you to do would be to work with your local Agfa rep -
even if choosing a used device elsewhere, to make sure you have a
device that is optimized or efficient with a plate like Azura. For used gear,
typically 40W Creo heads and above are certified. Of course other used
engines work well.. again work with your local Agfa agent.
Regards,
VladCanada
Well-known member
And one more point : Your CTP can expose Azura... but you have On-Line Processor with a traditional way for plates through all sections including Developer Bath with-or-without brush-rollers... what could you do!?
I know only one right way to success - to purchase a "Short style" AGFA processor for Azura 'cause the idea to replace all chem. by AGFA Gum for Azura plates in OLP don't give you 100% warranty to be out of troubles.
I take a part in a few Russian Print forums and know some Customers who were a looser just because they did not want to ask local AGFA reps.
SteveAGFA is right - "...again, work with your local Agfa agent" to find the best solution of your ideas.
I know only one right way to success - to purchase a "Short style" AGFA processor for Azura 'cause the idea to replace all chem. by AGFA Gum for Azura plates in OLP don't give you 100% warranty to be out of troubles.
I take a part in a few Russian Print forums and know some Customers who were a looser just because they did not want to ask local AGFA reps.
SteveAGFA is right - "...again, work with your local Agfa agent" to find the best solution of your ideas.
Last edited:
SteveAgfa
Well-known member
Babylon...
Agfa has direct representation in over 40 countries,
and is represented by dealers/agents in over 120 more.
Surely, if you are interested in using Azura plates, then
that channel is an authorized Agfa rep/agent, who will
no doubt be able to answer directly, or get the answers
for you.
BTW - Vlad was suggesting that the best implementation
for Azura would be to use the optimized Agfa clean-out-
unit, like our C95 unit, rather than trying to modify a
traditional processor. This is what I suggested earlier as well.
Agfa has direct representation in over 40 countries,
and is represented by dealers/agents in over 120 more.
Surely, if you are interested in using Azura plates, then
that channel is an authorized Agfa rep/agent, who will
no doubt be able to answer directly, or get the answers
for you.
BTW - Vlad was suggesting that the best implementation
for Azura would be to use the optimized Agfa clean-out-
unit, like our C95 unit, rather than trying to modify a
traditional processor. This is what I suggested earlier as well.
beermonster
Well-known member
i've had the azura for a few months now, and so far I have used no water in prepress, I have 3 small 10ltr tubs of waste gum to dispose of, have only had to clean the wash out unit once - which took half an hour - and have had 260k impressions from the plate on one job.
there have been no spots on plates, register is perfect, colour gets there quickly, and the plates are readily available
having said that, we have had issues with some very potent hard drying inks killing the plates after about 10k - then again they probably would have killed our old conventional plates too
the plate is not cheap, so for a place with a large turnover of plates it might not be the most cost effective solution.
for us here, long packaging runs, it works a dream. very small amounts of waste, very very low "man maintenance" and high reliability.
i also negotiated the free use of a gummer and stacker unit while we use the plate - but don't tell anyone
there have been no spots on plates, register is perfect, colour gets there quickly, and the plates are readily available
having said that, we have had issues with some very potent hard drying inks killing the plates after about 10k - then again they probably would have killed our old conventional plates too
the plate is not cheap, so for a place with a large turnover of plates it might not be the most cost effective solution.
for us here, long packaging runs, it works a dream. very small amounts of waste, very very low "man maintenance" and high reliability.
i also negotiated the free use of a gummer and stacker unit while we use the plate - but don't tell anyone
SteveAgfa
Well-known member
Beer...
Thanks for the update.
For those who are newcomers to this forum -
Beer was at first against the idea of a chem-free
plate that needed a special gum and a special
clean-out unit to clean-out the plate, prior to
mounting on press. Beer did his homework,
and in the end, saw the benefits of the Agfa/
Azura approach.
Beer -
Are there surprises that didn't surface in
the investigation? Does Azura perform as
advertised? Did you test any other plate
beforehand?
Thanks for your kind words.
Thanks for the update.
For those who are newcomers to this forum -
Beer was at first against the idea of a chem-free
plate that needed a special gum and a special
clean-out unit to clean-out the plate, prior to
mounting on press. Beer did his homework,
and in the end, saw the benefits of the Agfa/
Azura approach.
Beer -
Are there surprises that didn't surface in
the investigation? Does Azura perform as
advertised? Did you test any other plate
beforehand?
Thanks for your kind words.
SteveAgfa
Well-known member
Hi Babylon...
You'll have to ask you local Agfa reseller what the price would be,
as we sell through a well established distribution channel, WW.
However, given that 80% of the processless/chem-free and
reduced chemistry plates in use are Agfa's, I suspect you'll
find the plates competitively priced for its application.
Regards,
You'll have to ask you local Agfa reseller what the price would be,
as we sell through a well established distribution channel, WW.
However, given that 80% of the processless/chem-free and
reduced chemistry plates in use are Agfa's, I suspect you'll
find the plates competitively priced for its application.
Regards,
beermonster
Well-known member
ok firstly can i clarify i am in no way connected to any vendor at all - i'm just a simple pre-press jock ok
i was indeed against the idea of ANY chemistry in pre-press. Initially I jumped on the processless bandwagon, BUT there were issues for us with those plates. firstly they keep on developing - and i dont have space/room for a special area for storage. clean out on press is not good for us. we use one plate size only (B1) and it's our sheet size that varies. since the plate coating gets taken away by the substrate, what happens to the coating outside of the substrate size - and what are the long term affects? again - only applicable to us maybe.
so it was a question of the best alternative. sure - there's "less chemistry usage" plates from everyone - fuji, kodak, agfa - all the players, but my goal if i couldn't eliminate all chemistry was to get as close as possible. i wanted to reduce man hours cleaning, chemical usage, power usage, disposal costs - all the usual things but give a CLEAN plate to press
water usage in plate development is substantial over a year - all that has gone now. yes i have a ctp, yes we have had to slow it slightly with the azura (am going to an open day next week to view the new azura ts faster plate), and yes we have had an issue with aggressive substrates and inks.
however - the plate is quite robust under fair conditions - by which i mean with non aggressive inks and substrates. we have had very long run lengths and press have had to alter two things - nothing and nothing!
after a few months i now have a grand total of three 10ltr tubs to "dispose" of - actually it is possible to dilute the stuff and tip down the drain depending on your local authority rules. i dont however - and i'm very happy with my prediction of a max of 15 tubs a year for disposal, less than an hour a MONTH spent on the gum unit (including changing the gum tub which takes about a minute) and the excellent set up and back up agfa have given us
believe what you will, but i'm not an agfa fan - never have been, but there were good drivers for using this plate and agfa, and we are extremely happy.
i was indeed against the idea of ANY chemistry in pre-press. Initially I jumped on the processless bandwagon, BUT there were issues for us with those plates. firstly they keep on developing - and i dont have space/room for a special area for storage. clean out on press is not good for us. we use one plate size only (B1) and it's our sheet size that varies. since the plate coating gets taken away by the substrate, what happens to the coating outside of the substrate size - and what are the long term affects? again - only applicable to us maybe.
so it was a question of the best alternative. sure - there's "less chemistry usage" plates from everyone - fuji, kodak, agfa - all the players, but my goal if i couldn't eliminate all chemistry was to get as close as possible. i wanted to reduce man hours cleaning, chemical usage, power usage, disposal costs - all the usual things but give a CLEAN plate to press
water usage in plate development is substantial over a year - all that has gone now. yes i have a ctp, yes we have had to slow it slightly with the azura (am going to an open day next week to view the new azura ts faster plate), and yes we have had an issue with aggressive substrates and inks.
however - the plate is quite robust under fair conditions - by which i mean with non aggressive inks and substrates. we have had very long run lengths and press have had to alter two things - nothing and nothing!
after a few months i now have a grand total of three 10ltr tubs to "dispose" of - actually it is possible to dilute the stuff and tip down the drain depending on your local authority rules. i dont however - and i'm very happy with my prediction of a max of 15 tubs a year for disposal, less than an hour a MONTH spent on the gum unit (including changing the gum tub which takes about a minute) and the excellent set up and back up agfa have given us
believe what you will, but i'm not an agfa fan - never have been, but there were good drivers for using this plate and agfa, and we are extremely happy.
Babylon,
Our experiences here are much likes Beers, except for the fact that we have been running the Azura's for close to 4 years now. We are a 20 x 28 Komori commercial printer (aprox 500 plates per month) running high end fashion, retail, and pharmaceutical work outside of Manhattan. Like Beer, we too tried another chem-free plate before the Azura's and were bitterly disappointed.
Printing with the Azura's has been fantastic. No spots, no plate breakdown (although our typical run length is <20,000 impressions) no switch in press room solutions or practices, and a reduction in the amount of make ready sheets for each form.
The upside to the Azura's was the elimination of chemistry, the elimination of high water usage to clean out the plate, and some of the best repeatability I have seen on any plate. Jobs that were produced 6 months ago are easily replicated.
The switch to the Azura, began and still is the cornerstone, of our environmentally friendlier practices.
The payoff for all this has been increased business, and 4 Silver and 1 Best of Category win for print at The Create Awards, all of which were produced on Azura plates.
Our experiences here are much likes Beers, except for the fact that we have been running the Azura's for close to 4 years now. We are a 20 x 28 Komori commercial printer (aprox 500 plates per month) running high end fashion, retail, and pharmaceutical work outside of Manhattan. Like Beer, we too tried another chem-free plate before the Azura's and were bitterly disappointed.
Printing with the Azura's has been fantastic. No spots, no plate breakdown (although our typical run length is <20,000 impressions) no switch in press room solutions or practices, and a reduction in the amount of make ready sheets for each form.
The upside to the Azura's was the elimination of chemistry, the elimination of high water usage to clean out the plate, and some of the best repeatability I have seen on any plate. Jobs that were produced 6 months ago are easily replicated.
The switch to the Azura, began and still is the cornerstone, of our environmentally friendlier practices.
The payoff for all this has been increased business, and 4 Silver and 1 Best of Category win for print at The Create Awards, all of which were produced on Azura plates.
VladCanada
Well-known member
Beer said :"and yes we have had an issue with aggressive substrates and inks."
Why not to try another AGFA plates AMIGO created especialy for that requirements?
PS. Don't ask me for the price and details - I'm a Serviceman for equpment not consumables
Why not to try another AGFA plates AMIGO created especialy for that requirements?
PS. Don't ask me for the price and details - I'm a Serviceman for equpment not consumables
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