Only difference is that my plates now image faster. Other than that they were a drop in like the Azura. My proofer profiles all matched and our print matched. We ran 500 test sheets on the old Azura plates and 500 test sheets of the same image afterward on the Azura TS. No one is the shop could see a difference between the finished job.
chemistry free plates (research)
- Thread starter zBret
- Start date
Only difference is that my plates now image faster. Other than that they were a drop in like the Azura. My proofer profiles all matched and our print matched. We ran 500 test sheets on the old Azura plates and 500 test sheets of the same image afterward on the Azura TS. No one is the shop could see a difference between the finished job.
Awaltd@kodak
Member
There's good discussion here - I hope this answers the various questions posed (but you can always contact me with more);
First, regarding press sheet sizes that are smaller than Thermal Direct plates: during the start up of the press, the oscillation of the ink rollers migrate the ultrathin coating to the center of the rollers enabling the make-ready sheets to completely remove the coating of the non imaged area from the press. We have many customers doing this. The worst case scenario is you might have to do a blanket cleaning, depending on your press - something easy to test for with a set of demo plates that we'll gladly provide. The amount of coating interacting with the ink rollers is probably not much more than the dissolved coating that's retained in the gum left on Azura plates at the end of the gum bath life - and without the green dye.
Regarding reading plates: Thermal Direct plates have an image contrast distinct enough to easily read 12 pt. type for cylinder identification. The emulsion is a blue-green-gray color, and is also visible in yellow light (which you normally wouldn't want in your pressroom anyways) . With the fact that you are removing process variation by not having to use a processor - especially if you also have Kodak's rock-solid SQUAREspot imaging system - Thermal Direct customers have the confidence to go on press without measuring the plate. What comes out of the CTP system is what will print on press.
The concern surrounding putting Thermal Direct on a multi-million dollar press is based on FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt) created by our competitors, plus the failures of earlier DOP technologies. Thermal Direct has never had a single report of press contamination - even with press sheets that are smaller than the plate. Again the ultra-thin coating of the non imaged area is able to removed from the press without contamination and then perform like any other litho plate. The real question is why wouldn’t you take advantage of a technology to remove the costs and variables of processing or "cleaning out" a plate? Even a "clean out unit" has considerable costs on an annual basis - capital costs, maintenance, chemistry, cleaning, disposal, energy, and footprint.
First, regarding press sheet sizes that are smaller than Thermal Direct plates: during the start up of the press, the oscillation of the ink rollers migrate the ultrathin coating to the center of the rollers enabling the make-ready sheets to completely remove the coating of the non imaged area from the press. We have many customers doing this. The worst case scenario is you might have to do a blanket cleaning, depending on your press - something easy to test for with a set of demo plates that we'll gladly provide. The amount of coating interacting with the ink rollers is probably not much more than the dissolved coating that's retained in the gum left on Azura plates at the end of the gum bath life - and without the green dye.
Regarding reading plates: Thermal Direct plates have an image contrast distinct enough to easily read 12 pt. type for cylinder identification. The emulsion is a blue-green-gray color, and is also visible in yellow light (which you normally wouldn't want in your pressroom anyways) . With the fact that you are removing process variation by not having to use a processor - especially if you also have Kodak's rock-solid SQUAREspot imaging system - Thermal Direct customers have the confidence to go on press without measuring the plate. What comes out of the CTP system is what will print on press.
The concern surrounding putting Thermal Direct on a multi-million dollar press is based on FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt) created by our competitors, plus the failures of earlier DOP technologies. Thermal Direct has never had a single report of press contamination - even with press sheets that are smaller than the plate. Again the ultra-thin coating of the non imaged area is able to removed from the press without contamination and then perform like any other litho plate. The real question is why wouldn’t you take advantage of a technology to remove the costs and variables of processing or "cleaning out" a plate? Even a "clean out unit" has considerable costs on an annual basis - capital costs, maintenance, chemistry, cleaning, disposal, energy, and footprint.
PantherMac
Well-known member
3 year Thermal Direct User
3 year Thermal Direct User
Sorry I haven't gotten through all the replies to this thread, but wanted to throw in my 2-cents... Been using the Thermal Directs from Kodak for about 3 years now, and absolutely love them. They have delivered exactly as promised, and have not been difficult to handle at all (despite rumors and FUD from competitive vendors). I have a lot of respect for Steve and his zest is second to none, but the Thermal Direct has just been a dream to work with for the past 3 years.
Please feel free to PM me if you want to ask any particular questions.
- Mac
3 year Thermal Direct User
Sorry I haven't gotten through all the replies to this thread, but wanted to throw in my 2-cents... Been using the Thermal Directs from Kodak for about 3 years now, and absolutely love them. They have delivered exactly as promised, and have not been difficult to handle at all (despite rumors and FUD from competitive vendors). I have a lot of respect for Steve and his zest is second to none, but the Thermal Direct has just been a dream to work with for the past 3 years.
Please feel free to PM me if you want to ask any particular questions.
- Mac
We have been using Thermal Directs for about 9 months, and I love them, we are running 175 LS on everything from our Ryobis to our Sakurai 5 color we have had very few issues. You do need to handle them with care, and once we burn ours we slipsheet them and slide them into a envelope to keep them from "turning" and you can store them, the pressman havent seen any kind of change in the chemistry either.
Is anyone running any of these types of plates on business-forms style web presses? I've understood that with previous generations of process-less/chemistry-free plates that the abrasive nature of these half-web presses caused problems. We run business forms and or cheques (that's checks for the 'mericans) and booklets on ours. We have both Sanden and Didde DG presses.
Internal_R&D_Analyst
Well-known member
Awaltd,
Is FUD a Kodak or Awaltd Copyright? I could use this for several projects.
Barry Brown
Member
Semantics; some of the contributors to this string could well have advised Bill Clinton how to answer sticky questions.
Is water chemistry? It is when in the press fount, when there are about 5% additives included.
I think the term "chemistry free" should really mean that, without any chemicals.
Fuji's Pro-T and Kodak's Thermal Direct are certainly both "process free" and "chemisty free". The plates can be taken directly from the CTP into the press, without processing. Can you process them? Sure you can, if you want; but the whole idea stems from the idea that you don't.
Agfa's :Azura, :Amigo and N92-VCF, and Fuji's Pro-V & Pro-VN plates are all processed (washed and gummed) but are all certainly not "chemistry free" (because they need something more than water to remove the non-print emulsion). At best they should be called Low Chem plates. The relevant questions to these are, how much chemistry (finishing gum) is consumed, what do you have do with the recovered chemistry, how much rinse water and energy is saved (compared to normal CTP plates), what is the saving in equipment (washing unit v. processor) and manpower (maintenance hours), and do they work in the press to the printers satisfaction.
--Barry Brown, KTA, Finland.
Is water chemistry? It is when in the press fount, when there are about 5% additives included.
I think the term "chemistry free" should really mean that, without any chemicals.
Fuji's Pro-T and Kodak's Thermal Direct are certainly both "process free" and "chemisty free". The plates can be taken directly from the CTP into the press, without processing. Can you process them? Sure you can, if you want; but the whole idea stems from the idea that you don't.
Agfa's :Azura, :Amigo and N92-VCF, and Fuji's Pro-V & Pro-VN plates are all processed (washed and gummed) but are all certainly not "chemistry free" (because they need something more than water to remove the non-print emulsion). At best they should be called Low Chem plates. The relevant questions to these are, how much chemistry (finishing gum) is consumed, what do you have do with the recovered chemistry, how much rinse water and energy is saved (compared to normal CTP plates), what is the saving in equipment (washing unit v. processor) and manpower (maintenance hours), and do they work in the press to the printers satisfaction.
--Barry Brown, KTA, Finland.
PantherMac
Well-known member
Can't say specific to that process, however they are more inclined to wear than the Sword Excel, or something along those lines. That being said.. we've gotten 100m impressions off a single set of plates before. They do start breaking down, and I wouldn't plan on going longer than that.. have had one or two jobs that were not quite that long start to wear, too (at 75m impressions the pressroom said they were fighting dot-gain)... So in a harsher environment, I wouldn't expect them to hold up as well as a baked plate would.
- Mac
PantherMac
Well-known member
EXACTLY....
That was the final thought that sealed the decision process for us when we were installing our CTP system 3 years ago. W/ any other type of plate, we were going to have to put a piece of equipment on the floor to 'deal with' the plates after they came out of the imager. What the equipment did, how much it cost, floor space, consumables, those were all variable by solution, but at the end of the day, we had to put something on the floor (*caveat*: We already had large flat-file filing cabinets we used for press-sheets and plate storage).
So we started up w/ a 60-day backout clause in the contract. By "trying" the TD's, we didn't have to expend any additional space/time/money/energy on processing equipment. If the TD's didn't work out for us, we call our vendor, he picks up the un-used consigned products, and we pay for what we used. Call in the other vendors, start the bidding war and taping out the floor for modifications.
So, "trying" the TD's took $0-investment but the box(es) of plates. Rather easy to convince management to "give that a try first" over any of the competitors solutions...
- Mac
gordo
Well-known member
Awaltd,
Is FUD a Kodak or Awaltd Copyright? I could use this for several projects.
FUD is a fairly standard marketing term: Fear, uncertainty and doubt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You can use it as you wish
gordon p
my print blog here: Quality In Print
gordo
Well-known member
Not specifically directed at Steve, but I can't help resorting to my marketing education when when reading some of the posts (by vendors and users) on this forum: 38 Ways To Win An Argument—Arthur Schopenhauer - The India Uncut Blog - India Uncut
(his argument being #34 or #32 perhaps?)
This site is also helpful: Fallacies
best, gordon p
my print blog here: Quality In Print
SteveAgfa
Well-known member
Hi Gordon -
I hope that neither you nor others interpreted my casual (and intended light-hearted) observation as questioning the integrity of Mac, the veracity of Mac's comments, nor the business decisions behind his choices. I believe everything Mac has said - no reason to doubt any of his observations. Mac and I have had some good interactions in the past behind the scenes. I prefer to read a variety of comments/experiences from users - as these are the experiences that matter most. I'll try to stick to technology-based clarifications, and try to avoid humor.
Thanks
I hope that neither you nor others interpreted my casual (and intended light-hearted) observation as questioning the integrity of Mac, the veracity of Mac's comments, nor the business decisions behind his choices. I believe everything Mac has said - no reason to doubt any of his observations. Mac and I have had some good interactions in the past behind the scenes. I prefer to read a variety of comments/experiences from users - as these are the experiences that matter most. I'll try to stick to technology-based clarifications, and try to avoid humor.
Thanks
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Awaltd@kodak
Member
janezl
For Thermal Direct Non Process Plates to be successful, the press requirements are simply to follow the startup procedures that are already defined by the press manufacture for that press. Of course you want to insure that all ink forms and water form rollers are checked for stripe and durometer. Also, the fountain solution should be optimized, again according to manufacturer recommendations.
As for the age of the press, we have a wide range of press's, from new to over 40 year old presses running Thermal Direct. Its not the age, it’s the state of the press. Condition and set points need to be maintained to the manufacturers specifications.
Thanks,
Awaltd@kodak
For Thermal Direct Non Process Plates to be successful, the press requirements are simply to follow the startup procedures that are already defined by the press manufacture for that press. Of course you want to insure that all ink forms and water form rollers are checked for stripe and durometer. Also, the fountain solution should be optimized, again according to manufacturer recommendations.
As for the age of the press, we have a wide range of press's, from new to over 40 year old presses running Thermal Direct. Its not the age, it’s the state of the press. Condition and set points need to be maintained to the manufacturers specifications.
Thanks,
Awaltd@kodak
gordo
Well-known member
The document at the below address may be of help:
http://www.johnzarwan.com/pubs/environmentplate.pdf
best, gordon p
my print blog here: Quality In Print
http://www.johnzarwan.com/pubs/environmentplate.pdf
best, gordon p
my print blog here: Quality In Print
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