Chipping in Bindery

[Manafaith]

Running a Ricoh 9100 and Bindery is having a terrible time with the toner Chipping off of the back side of the prints. Everything is being cut on a Polar Guillotine Cutter. We have tried a variety of different angles on the blade. Adjusted heat Up but the only thing that seems to work is die cutting.
After jobs are cut the front sides are perfect but the back side toner just rolls off the sheet with a light drag of your fingertips. I know it is a common problem with Digital but are there any viable solutions out there? I have attached a pic for reference.

 

[Guest]

It is a common problem, not just you.

 

[tpmar]

Running a Ricoh 9100 and Bindery is having a terrible time with the toner Chipping off of the back side of the prints. Everything is being cut on a Polar Guillotine Cutter. We have tried a variety of different angles on the blade. Adjusted heat Up but the only thing that seems to work is die cutting.
After jobs are cut the front sides are perfect but the back side toner just rolls off the sheet with a light drag of your fingertips. I know it is a common problem with Digital but are there any viable solutions out there? I have attached a pic for reference.

That is strange. I've been running our 9100 for about 5 months and I haven't seen anything like that. Prior to Ricoh I was running a series 2 Indigo for 10 years and those inks were very soft! Always had problems with scratches when trimming, folding, etc... One of the things I really like about the 9100 is how sturdy the inks are. Just throwing this out there; could it be the brand of paper you're using? Do you see these issues across multiple brands? I run nearly all Endurance, Verativ, and Blazer, and International Paper Accent Opaque for my uncoated stock.

 

[Manafaith]

This job is on 120# Accent Cover. Seems to be quite a bit worse on the tick stuff

 

[PrintingFools]

1. Most printers only change out their blades ( sharpen ) every 2,000 cuts. We change ours every week regardless. This helps with less chipping
2. Running the print at 95% on the "color light or darkness" setting instead of 100% can sometimes help. As long as your print still looks good.
3. Make sure you are cutting correctly "back cutting" the finished edge is always inside the cutter , not outside when cutting. I have seen a lot of people cut incorrectly.
4. know that the front/top will always look better than the back. So face your print with the darkest side up when cutting and lightest side down.
A few tips...hope they help.

 

[Manafaith]

That is strange. I've been running our 9100 for about 5 months and I haven't seen anything like that. Prior to Ricoh I was running a series 2 Indigo for 10 years and those inks were very soft! Always had problems with scratches when trimming, folding, etc... One of the things I really like about the 9100 is how sturdy the inks are. Just throwing this out there; could it be the brand of paper you're using? Do you see these issues across multiple brands? I run nearly all Endurance, Verativ, and Blazer, and International Paper Accent Opaque for my uncoated stock.

TPMAR.... Have you ran any 120/130 LB Accent Opaque Cover with Extreme Coverage both sides?? and are you Guillotine Cutting everything? The frustrating part is if we die cut, Punch, run through our ST-90 Collater Trimmer it doesn't do it

 

[msaeger]

Running a Ricoh 9100 and Bindery is having a terrible time with the toner Chipping off of the back side of the prints. Everything is being cut on a Polar Guillotine Cutter. We have tried a variety of different angles on the blade. Adjusted heat Up but the only thing that seems to work is die cutting.
After jobs are cut the front sides are perfect but the back side toner just rolls off the sheet with a light drag of your fingertips. I know it is a common problem with Digital but are there any viable solutions out there? I have attached a pic for reference.

How easy does it scratch off before cutting? In addition to the temp you can try and change the pressure and process speed.

 

[TheProcessIStheproduct]

Yeah looks like it’s not backtrimmed, any digital on 120# even on a newly sharpened carbide blade would be rough with that kind of coverage unless it’s backtrimmed

 

[tpmar]

TPMAR.... Have you ran any 120/130 LB Accent Opaque Cover with Extreme Coverage both sides?? and are you Guillotine Cutting everything? The frustrating part is if we die cut, Punch, run through our ST-90 Collater Trimmer it doesn't do it

Hey Manafaith; The thickest Accent Opaque I've got on hand is #100 cover. I've got a post-it note on my monitor to test some sheets for you whenever I can get a break in the action around here. And just so we can compare, the advanced paper setting that I have for this paper are these: 1 + 2 are at 1.0, 4 is at -1.3, 5+6 are at .200%, 7+8 are at 0, 13 + 14 are at 0, 16 is at .3%, 17 is at .6%, 84 is off, 87 is medium, 110 is active, 119 is deactive. Like I said, when I get a minute to test I'll let you know what I get. The bulk of my uncoated work is 60#, 70#, and 80# uncoated text.

 

[scotts]

We don't have a 9100, and I don't deal with these kind of issues in our shop, but is stock an approved brand for the press? I know sometimes our field tech, will "blame" the paper. Not always is he right, but sometimes. Just a thought. Has anyone looked at or tried lowering the TAC on the page, and seeing if that would help with digital and cutting? We haven't here, so we must not have run into the issues or have found another work around. These are just some of the things I would try. And how big of a lift are you trying to cut, maybe try half the size and see what happens.

 

[Manafaith]

How easy does it scratch off before cutting? In addition to the temp you can try and change the pressure and process speed.

It does not scratch off at all. The toner adhesion is Fantastic and I have changed temps up/down, process speed as slow as she can go and Nip way down and I always get the exact same result. My Tech boxed some up to send to the facility where Ricoh does all of the trouble shooting. I was told that once they do that then they get the Engineers involved to try and resolve the problem, so we shall see

 

[Manafaith]

Hey Manafaith; The thickest Accent Opaque I've got on hand is #100 cover. I've got a post-it note on my monitor to test some sheets for you whenever I can get a break in the action around here. And just so we can compare, the advanced paper setting that I have for this paper are these: 1 + 2 are at 1.0, 4 is at -1.3, 5+6 are at .200%, 7+8 are at 0, 13 + 14 are at 0, 16 is at .3%, 17 is at .6%, 84 is off, 87 is medium, 110 is active, 119 is deactive. Like I said, when I get a minute to test I'll let you know what I get. The bulk of my uncoated work is 60#, 70#, and 80# uncoated text.

Don't go out of your way but I do appreciate it. I run a ton of 100# Accent Cover with no issues ever. This is by far the weirdest thing I have ever seen. This problem has now been escalated to Ricoh Engineering so I am just waiting to hear back with the ever looming deadline drawing closer day by day

 

[kslight]

1. Most printers only change out their blades ( sharpen ) every 2,000 cuts. We change ours every week regardless. This helps with less chipping
2. Running the print at 95% on the "color light or darkness" setting instead of 100% can sometimes help. As long as your print still looks good.
3. Make sure you are cutting correctly "back cutting" the finished edge is always inside the cutter , not outside when cutting. I have seen a lot of people cut incorrectly.
4. know that the front/top will always look better than the back. So face your print with the darkest side up when cutting and lightest side down.
A few tips...hope they help.

We use Xerox, and have had to run this (garbage) from time to time, but don't have problems like this on the cutter when using it. Sometimes the stock just doesn't look great when printed on, especially with heavier coverage. Will generally have cracking problems folding it though, with or against the grain.

 

[tpmar]

Don't go out of your way but I do appreciate it. I run a ton of 100# Accent Cover with no issues ever. This is by far the weirdest thing I have ever seen. This problem has now been escalated to Ricoh Engineering so I am just waiting to hear back with the ever looming deadline drawing closer day by day

I hear ya. Sometimes I consider going into a less stressful line of work, maybe something like bomb disposal expert!

 

[Manafaith]

I hear ya. Sometimes I consider going into a less stressful line of work, maybe something like bomb disposal expert!

AMEN TO THAT!!!! Sometimes I wonder how I stumbled into printing (what was I thinking) It was purely by accident about 25 years ago and now its too late to become a forest ranger

 

[msaeger]

AMEN TO THAT!!!! Sometimes I wonder how I stumbled into printing (what was I thinking) It was purely by accident about 25 years ago and now its too late to become a forest ranger

https://youtu.be/sZa26_esLBE

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

https://youtu.be/sZa26_esLBE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

 

[tpmar]

Running a Ricoh 9100 and Bindery is having a terrible time with the toner Chipping off of the back side of the prints. Everything is being cut on a Polar Guillotine Cutter. We have tried a variety of different angles on the blade. Adjusted heat Up but the only thing that seems to work is die cutting.
After jobs are cut the front sides are perfect but the back side toner just rolls off the sheet with a light drag of your fingertips. I know it is a common problem with Digital but are there any viable solutions out there? I have attached a pic for reference.

Hey Manafaith; been thinking this over and came up with 2 other ideas you could try. Since this is only happening on the back of the sheet ,(most likely because of the mega-coverage, not because it's the back) you could swap the face and back spreads and make the face the back and the back the face. Just something to try. You might even be able to do that just by changing the stack order. And one other idea, you could send these sheets through the press twice, simplex each time. I'd do the face first, then reload the sheets (watch face to back registration) and then print the back.

 

[ColorMonkey]

1. Most printers only change out their blades ( sharpen ) every 2,000 cuts. We change ours every week regardless. This helps with less chipping
2. Running the print at 95% on the "color light or darkness" setting instead of 100% can sometimes help. As long as your print still looks good.
3. Make sure you are cutting correctly "back cutting" the finished edge is always inside the cutter , not outside when cutting. I have seen a lot of people cut incorrectly.
4. know that the front/top will always look better than the back. So face your print with the darkest side up when cutting and lightest side down.
A few tips...hope they help.

This^

Problem is when you have heavy coverage on both sides, then you have to choose. I will say that the sharper the blade the less problem you'll have and heavy coverage up is a good tip. Something to consider as well is just because a blade comes back sharpened does not mean it was done well. At another shop I worked at the company we had sharpen our knives did not do a great job, we then switched after me asking a few buddies who they use and we didn't see the problem we were experiencing after that.

If you do have faith in the sharpness of your knives then the already stated tips are exactly what I would offer and also pressure can have an affect on this problem.

Good luck!

 

[MailGuru]

Are these a "gutter cut" (trim), or, just a "bust cut" (one cut down the middle, such as making two 8 1/2 x 11's out of one 11 x 17). If it's a bust cut, just flip the gates around on your folder (so, it's just feeding, not folding), engage your slitter-knife at the midway point, and, just feed/cut to your heart's content. BTW, it does look like the blades on your guillotine are not sharp such that it is pulling on the edges when you cut, thus chipping the finish.