Choice between Thermal & Violet Laser CTP's

[karish552]

We are in the process of purchasing a CTP for our press and can't seem to decide between the Violet laser and Thermal options. Could anyone shed some light on this...we are quite new to this technology.

 

[pam_add]

sure thermal because cheap , clean , fast

 

[BillJ]

With the introduction of no process violet, I would look at violet. Violet optics are much simpler and have much longer life spans.Setting exposure and calibrating is similar to an imagesetter. The cost and availability of plates and service in your area would be the main determining factor.

 

[KevinC@EFI]

Hi Karish -

Of course I'm a FULL supporter of the value of Thermal over Violet, but it would help everyone if you describe your needs more... there's no "one size fits all" option. Whithout knowing more about your needs, you'll just hear everyone's personal favorite and not why it could be right for you.

Everything from your technical printing needs (screening, runlength, normal/uv inks, sheetfed, web, 4-page/8-page/VLF, are you willing to live with safelights, etc.) to your business priorities and environmental goals.

Kevin.

 

[karish552]

Hi Kevin,

Thanks for your input, we are a small press based in the Seychelles. Our primary business is a local newspaper as well as other general print jobs...our run lenghts are fairly small, use normal inks and the presses are sheetfed. We don't mind the safelights. The issues I was unsure about is the variety of plates available for the violet laser and also the maintenance cost for the thermal...I've been doing a bit of reading and it seems the laser life for the violet is longer and replacements are cheaper...not sure how true that is.

thanks,
Karish.

 

[KevinC@EFI]

Thanks for your input, we are a small press based in the Seychelles. Our primary business is a local newspaper as well as other general print jobs...our run lenghts are fairly small, use normal inks and the presses are sheetfed. We don't mind the safelights. The issues I was unsure about is the variety of plates available for the violet laser and also the maintenance cost for the thermal...I've been doing a bit of reading and it seems the laser life for the violet is longer and replacements are cheaper...not sure how true that is.

The myth about laser cost is very misleading unfortunately. The cost of thermal laser diodes is actually less than high-powered violet ones (the thermal ones are used in HUGE quantities in the telecommunications industry, making them a very reliable and affordable laser to use). Our laser heads also include multiple diodes - up to 38 - with built-in redundancy. If one or more fail, the machine just keeps working and you'll never even know. Even on our lower-cost "Laser Diode Array (LDA)" systems we ship with at least 3 spare diodes, giving the average head life of > 5 years. Even then, we offer refurbishment services.

Given that you're in a tropical paradise like the Seychelles (I'm jealous, can you tell?), I am guessing that environmental issues are a concern. Going with a non-process solution would help eliminate the chemical impact and all disposal, but more importantly would mean you have one less product to stock... chemistry can be difficult to ship quickly (i.e. by air) if you need more. Your print conditions sound like they'd be fine for a plate like Thermal Direct, including the newspaper applications.

Thermal gives you a huge range of plate options though - especially with an "open" system like the ones Kodak sells. There are many dozens of thermal plate manufacturers out there, giving you a huge choice of suppliers. We have a standard program to qualify any plate that will technically work - as far as I know, that's unique in the industry.

We believe in the quality, consistency, performance, and value of thermal; but if you choose violet, we do have very good plates to offer too.


Let me know if I can help further, or if you have more specific questions.
Kevin.

 

[karish552]

Hi Kevin, your input has really been very helpful and enlightening.
Since we are a small/medium sized press we have opted to go with a second hand unit to begin with, but also open to comparing prices of new units...we will be the first to use this technology here in the Seychelles, and yes you were correct in guessing the environmental issues we face (in our tropical paradise) ...the Thermal direct I assume are processless plates? I suppose since we don't have substantial run lengths the impression life of the plates is not a big issue. What about the image quality on these types of plates and the preparation time, how do they compare?
For a press our size with SM-74's and GTO-52 presses what CTP would you suggest we take a look at?
Thanks,
Karish.

 

[KevinC@EFI]

I'm always glad to help, of course. I hope you choose a Kodak solution in the end, but that's not the only reason I'm here!

Thermal Direct is Kodak's non-process plate - meaning that you take it out of the CTP and it can go directly to the press. There's no processor, no chemicals or wash-off, and no disposal of used chemistry. Quality is as good as many "normal" thermal plates - 200lpi or FM25 is not an issue. 100k runlength, good compatibility with various press chemistry, etc. The main differences (which I'm sure my competitors will point out) are low image contrast after imaging, and high exposure energy requirements.

In today's environment, visual inspection of the plates shouldn't be required. By eliminating the chemical development process, we've also eliminated the biggest source of variation - so plate measurement on a regular basis isn't really needed either. Of course we'd like more contrast, but there are thousands of users out there very happy with this solution today. The plate exposure shouldn't be an issue either if you look at system throughput. At least on a Kodak CTP, we have the power density to output at full speed on most of our normal-speed devices.

If processless isn't for you, then there are many other great options too - including our new Trillian SP plate (but it won't be fully available until July - Kodak Trillian SP Thermal Plates - Kodak Graphic Communications Group )

If you're looking for used Kodak devices - I'd suggest the proven battle-tank Trendsetter 400 is always a good solution unless you need automation. Used Lotems and Magnus devices are also great choices with full automation options... it depends on your supplier and local support.

Kevin.

 

[mac310]

Great... when you want to see nothing on plate choose ThermalDirect.
Think that plate developing on press depends on fountain solution which is not design to develop plates. I saw founts which can't soften emulsion enough and founts which removes emulsion completly. But of course there are some situations when Thermal Direct works.
Trillian looks great also but almost similar concept is known from years as Amigo plate from Agfa. We will see if Trillian will be so good as mentioned in press release.
Regarding platesetter I understand that Kodak prefares thermal because they has no violet engines. If you want to say that Quantum head is cheap when you need to replace them I will be very surprised.
One is true, everything depends on company profile. Sometimes thermal is better solution sometimes violet. I think that good workflow and professional support is more important then only engine which is only a box of iron. Most of today platesetters from every supplier (Agfa, Kodak, Heidelberg, Screen) will produce good plates.

 

[KevinC@EFI]

Great... when you want to see nothing on plate choose ThermalDirect.
Think that plate developing on press depends on fountain solution which is not design to develop plates. I saw founts which can't soften emulsion enough and founts which removes emulsion completly. But of course there are some situations when Thermal Direct works.
Trillian looks great also but almost similar concept is known from years as Amigo plate from Agfa. We will see if Trillian will be so good as mentioned in press release.
Regarding platesetter I understand that Kodak prefares thermal because they has no violet engines. If you want to say that Quantum head is cheap when you need to replace them I will be very surprised.
One is true, everything depends on company profile. Sometimes thermal is better solution sometimes violet. I think that good workflow and professional support is more important then only engine which is only a box of iron. Most of today platesetters from every supplier (Agfa, Kodak, Heidelberg, Screen) will produce good plates.

"See nothing" on the plate is certainly a gross exaggeration, and the fount compatibility of TD has proven to be remarkably good (better than some processed plates). No, you can't measure it, but YES you can see the image and identify the job and separation. Our competitors love to beat on these things, but in the end it does work just fine for the thousands of printers using it quite happily today.

As for Trillian SP being "similar concept" to Amigo... maybe in terms of positioning and some features, but most definitely not in terms of technology and other key features. The most significant one being speed (65mJ/cm2 versus Amigo's 200++), making Trillian SP ideal for the mid-high volume printers too. Certainly we've made some BIG claims for this product and need to prove it, but given the number of beta sites and volume of media we've tested now I'm fully confident that we'll deliver on them.

Kevin.

 

[fiatlux]

Regarding platesetter I understand that Kodak prefares thermal because they has no violet engines.

I was under the impression that Kodak sold ECRM violet CtP for newspapers. True?

FL

 

[marktonk]

Hi Karish,
When reviewing lasers, you need to look at the system itself. Violet laser are used in Blu-ray DVD's so I would venture to guess there are a more than a few around. Find out what the cost is to replace the laser if it goes down on all systems you are considering.

Do not assume all laser systems are the same. I would also look at how the system functions. Violet lasers are only on when imaging a plate so there is very little laser degradation. Some thermal systems are also designed to be on only when imaging a plate whereas some others are more like the old YAG laser, the laser is on when you turn the CtP on and only turned off when you shut the CtP off.

Have you ever caught a mistake on a plate before it printed? It cost allot less then if it made it to press. I would say pick a few technologies, look at the plates. How is the contrast? Print them and see how they respond. Do you need to do anything different in prepress or the press room to accommodate the plates?

Violet is white light sensitive and requires yellow safelights before processing but is white light safe after processing. Some thermal plates are white light safe and some are only safe for an hour under white light. Some of these will last upto 4 hours under yellow light.

You also need to look at how the plate develops. Violet plates either use chemistry or process through a offline clean out unit with gum. Thermal plates uses chemistry or an offline clean out unit with gum or they develop on press, depending on technology. You have to decide where you want to process and which technology your shop will be comfortable with.

I hope this provides you with some additional points to consider.

Regards,
Mark

 

[marktonk]

Thermal gives you a huge range of plate options though - especially with an "open" system like the ones Kodak sells. There are many dozens of thermal plate manufacturers out there, giving you a huge choice of suppliers. We have a standard program to qualify any plate that will technically work - as far as I know, that's unique in the industry.

Hi Kevin,

Heidelberg has tested just about every thermal plate on the Suprasetter and every violet plate on the Prosetter and certifies them providing they qualify. And yes, this is an ongoing program. Does this make us unique too?

Regards,

Mark

 

[RGPW17100]

How do you make a linear plate on a Kodak Thermal plate when the plate is so hard to read? We used to use these plates but when we switched to G7 we could not read them accurately with our plate reader.

 

[karish552]

I'm always glad to help, of course. I hope you choose a Kodak solution in the end, but that's not the only reason I'm here!

Thermal Direct is Kodak's non-process plate - meaning that you take it out of the CTP and it can go directly to the press. There's no processor, no chemicals or wash-off, and no disposal of used chemistry. Quality is as good as many "normal" thermal plates - 200lpi or FM25 is not an issue. 100k runlength, good compatibility with various press chemistry, etc. The main differences (which I'm sure my competitors will point out) are low image contrast after imaging, and high exposure energy requirements.

In today's environment, visual inspection of the plates shouldn't be required. By eliminating the chemical development process, we've also eliminated the biggest source of variation - so plate measurement on a regular basis isn't really needed either. Of course we'd like more contrast, but there are thousands of users out there very happy with this solution today. The plate exposure shouldn't be an issue either if you look at system throughput. At least on a Kodak CTP, we have the power density to output at full speed on most of our normal-speed devices.

If processless isn't for you, then there are many other great options too - including our new Trillian SP plate (but it won't be fully available until July - Kodak Trillian SP Thermal Plates - Kodak Graphic Communications Group )

If you're looking for used Kodak devices - I'd suggest the proven battle-tank Trendsetter 400 is always a good solution unless you need automation. Used Lotems and Magnus devices are also great choices with full automation options... it depends on your supplier and local support.

Kevin.

Kevin,

Again, thanks for your valuable input. We were initially looking at systems that would support the proceless plates so we are happy to go with that...unfortunately though we don't have any local support for printing equipment in Seychelles..the closest to us would be Heidelberg in Mauritius or south africa. Any how I'll ask our supplier to keep his eye out for the Trendsetter 400 as you suggested and see how that goes..am assuming that we will find authorised dealers in the UK where we can source Kodak plates etc?

Karish.

 

[karish552]

Hi Mark,

Thank you for responding, your input on the Violet laser is quite informative...we initially had contacted Heidelberg for the Prosetter 74 which we were quite keen on, but they informed us that these were no longer in production and would only be able to purchase the Suprasetter which is Thermal. But then after doing some reading I found the prosetter 74 is limited to Silver plates? Not sure how true that is, and if it there are environmental issues involved.

However, more recently our supplier sent us details for a Prosetter 74 30mW without a processor, which he reckons can do processless plates as well?

What are the advantages of the Suprasetter over the Prosetter? This is still abit unclear to me.

Thanks,
Karish.

 

[Hessel]

Don't switch to silver, agfa is struggling with the quality of the silver plate at this moment. And i think it won't be long until they cancel the complete silver plate.

 

[karish552]

Don't switch to silver, agfa is struggling with the quality of the silver plate at this moment. And i think it won't be long until they cancel the complete silver plate.

Thanks Hessel for your advise...I will keep that in mind.

Karish.

 

[mac310]

Don't switch to silver, agfa is struggling with the quality of the silver plate at this moment. And i think it won't be long until they cancel the complete silver plate.

I suppose that someone is affraid that silver plates are only provided by Agfa. It's true, but the quality is excellent. Very high resolution (which is standard for silver halide technology), higher than any other digital plates. Run length is also high, up to 350.000 impressions. Canceling of production for violet plates are not foreseen in near future. Agfa produce so many sq. meters that this is not their intention to stop that business quicly.
Anyway, today violet engines should be equipped with high power diode (60 or 120 mW), enough to work with polymer or chem-free plates also.
It is no problem to switch from one plate to another, which is not common for Kodak platesetters.
Keep in mind that Kodak engines are "closed" and service intervention will be required if you decide to use different kind of plates in that system. AFAIK it cost a lot of money and nerves to force Kodak to allow use of "non-kodak" plates on their system.

 

[karish552]

I suppose that someone is affraid that silver plates are only provided by Agfa. It's true, but the quality is excellent. Very high resolution (which is standard for silver halide technology), higher than any other digital plates. Run length is also high, up to 350.000 impressions. Canceling of production for violet plates are not foreseen in near future. Agfa produce so many sq. meters that this is not their intention to stop that business quicly.
Anyway, today violet engines should be equipped with high power diode (60 or 120 mW), enough to work with polymer or chem-free plates also.
It is no problem to switch from one plate to another, which is not common for Kodak platesetters.
Keep in mind that Kodak engines are "closed" and service intervention will be required if you decide to use different kind of plates in that system. AFAIK it cost a lot of money and nerves to force Kodak to allow use of "non-kodak" plates on their system.

Thanks for the advise. I do feel more inclined to the Violet laser and presently looking at a 30mW.