CMYK Blues

[ViewWise]

Ok, first i apologize if i missed something obvious but i designed my own flyers for my new business recently and had a company print for me. I get the feeling im being done over and would just like an opinion from people who know!

I designed and had printed a FULL COLOUR flyer. I sent the artwork in CMYK (within all their own specifications) and received back two proofs which were exactly like i sent them! (one for the FRONT and one for the BACK).

Today i received the flyers (20000!). The front was perfect. However on the back the blues were all purple. Its the exact same blue i used on the front (which came out fine!) and the proofs they sent me show it as being 100% the same as the front page blue on my screen and actual values in photoshop.

I phoned up the company and they wont do anything about it basically. They emailed me....

..."It is not a case of us printing the revers of the flyers incorrectly or using incorrect settings.

The flyers are printed on CMYK machines, which make up each colour from levels of Cyan, Magenta, Yellow and Black. Because each specific colour on the document is made from different levels of these four basic colours, slight colour variations can sometimes occur throughout the printing, during the same print run or on a different one. This is why in our terms and conditions we state that we cannot guarantee colour matching, because it is inherant throughout the printing industry that colour differences can and will happen."

Now i understand that variations in colour can happen from what i see on screen. I just dont understand how it can happen to only one side? Im convinced they set up the print wrong.

Or am i mistaken and its a normal thing in the printing industry ?

Thanks in advance for any advice guys.

 

[toronar]

Is the "blue" CMYK from the front roughly the same as the blue on the back?

If these values are (roughly) the same (it does not matter if the values are within 1-3% of each other), the front should look as the back does. If you received proofs and the blues were the same on front and back, then the printer *has* to reproduce his own proofs on the press. If the printer can't do that, he should not label his proofs as proofs, as that is what they are there for.

There are a lot possibilities what could have gone wrong, but if the printer's proofs showed everything ok and the final print is not, it is definately their fault. With one exception: if only one side (front *or* back) has a special coating or varnish on it. But then the printer should mention that special coating/varnish can alter color impressions.

I would contact the printer again and demand to know why the proofs showed everything fine and the final print is that far off.

 

[Vee]

Lack of QA! Someone wasn't paying attention during that press run.

The whole reason you get a proof, is to approve or reject the color/copy/content. I would demand they rerun the job based on the simple fact - they didn't match the proof you signed! Which is what the contractual agreement is based on.

 

[gig0]

what are the cmyk values of these blue areas?

 

[ViewWise]

Thanks guys. Im going to send them a sample back which they should have by tuesday.

Blue is :
C = 100
M = 100
Y = 0
K = 0

Its affected all blue areas in general on the back (even in the picture map) .

 

[akiyama_king]

Thanks guys. Im going to send them a sample back which they should have by tuesday.

Blue is :
C = 100
M = 100
Y = 0
K = 0

Its affected all blue areas in general on the back (even in the picture map) .

TBH, whenever i print blue that is made up of 100% 100% it turns out purple, but if the valuse are the same thorughout it should at the very least be the same (obviously not perfectly but pretty much) even if it didnt match the proof

 

[Sherbert]

Sounds like they buggered up! Could you post the file here?

 

[ViewWise]

TBH, whenever i print blue that is made up of 100% 100% it turns out purple, but if the valuse are the same thorughout it should at the very least be the same (obviously not perfectly but pretty much) even if it didnt match the proof

Yea, i told them that if it had all come out purpleish i would have accepted that maybe i should use a different colour next time but because its only one side (and its on 300gsm matt both sides) it just seemed like a mistake on their end.

Sherbet, ill post up the proofs they sent me when i get to my pc later on.

 

[kbd627]

Sounds like too much blue not enough red on the front. As an earlier poster stated 100% cyan and 100% magenta is going to print as a purple. Now if the proofs you were given are from a color copier (as many small printers do cause of cheaper cost) blues often dominate making the print bluer then the same values printed on a press.

 

[ViewWise]

hmm interesting. So whats a more safe value for blue in CMYK then?

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

It can be many things that cause a difference in front and back. I am not saying you have to accept it but it does happen.
I normally go for blue at 100 cyan and 60-80 magenta (depending on paper, and what colour I am looking to print)

 

[heffinchester]

If you don't mind me asking, did you order the brochures off the web?

 

[Simon Landau]

CMYK Blues

IMO there should be no issue with 100% Cyan and Magenta printing blue and not purple on press. If your density to colourmetric corelation has been done correctly then the trap for blue should NOT have a magenta bias. There a many software packages out there that allow printers to adjust their 100 year old "in house densities" to acurately give the right colourmetric values compared to various international or other printing standards. Density only measures ink film thickness and not the colour or hue of the dried product. These software packages then allow for accurate TVI curves to give correct dot gain values to these standards as well - then hey presto the press is printing exactly as the proof just running to the new target desities and let the plate curve do the rest. Then update the curve as time goes by as the press/enviroment changes and maintain mechanical optimums and everything should remain pretty much status quo.

Sorry for the rant !

 

[johnnyba]

Equal values of Cyan and Magenta make purple, lesser % but still equal parts make a lighter shade of purple. Deep blue sky C 90, M 50, The Magenta should be roughly 55% of the Cyan with maybe a percent or two Yellow. With equal amounts of C & M I am curious how they got the front. to look blue

 

[michaelejahn]

an inch is not 1.5 iches, and blue is NOT purple

an inch is not 1.5 iches, and blue is NOT purple

I designed and had printed a FULL COLOUR flyer. I sent the artwork in CMYK (within all their own specifications) and received back two proofs which were exactly like i sent them! (one for the FRONT and one for the BACK).

Answer - do not pay bill. They did NOT do what they said they would do. As far as I am concerned, if this was a mailing and it went out to customers, you have grounds to sue. This is like you paid for a blue car and they delivered a purple car - send it back.

In the case if this was a mailing and you had to use it to mail to meet a in home deadline, they screwed that up and messed you up so they owe damages. Yes, blue can turn purple, but lets face it, if that was to be expected, they would have sent you a proof that was PURPLE.

If you had a spectrophotometer, and you measured the proof and then measured the printed piece, and they were more than 6 deltas different, then they should re-print, period.

If you are not sure what that last sentence means, contact me directly at [email protected] or buy an X-Rite ColourMunki and learn a little more about color measurement and color management.

Hope this helps !

 

[Compressable Tech]

The same values of cyan and mag can visually shift easy on a press run even if densities are held throughout. The fact of the matter is that they committed to match your proofs. Braking out the values so they are not same may help the printer from a color consistent perspective.

 

[dimitri]

The main question seems to be why the front and back look different, even though the proofs look the same. Is there a different profile attached to each image? Did they run the densities at different levels?

But... "in our terms and conditions we state that we cannot guarantee colour matching, because it is inherant throughout the printing industry that colour differences can and will happen". This is awesome! I'm seeing pink elephants already!

 

[otherthoughts]

ViewWise
"Today i received the flyers (20000!)"
Just to be clear here, you did inspect the entire 20,000 sheets right? Occasionally a few bad sheets are negligently shipped out to the customer, while the vast majority of the job is fine.

"This is why in our terms and conditions we state that we cannot guarantee colour matching"
Were these "terms and conditions" actually stated on the proofs the printer sent to you, or a contract that you signed? If so, it would seem that you waived your claim to color matching in the legal sense.

I am sure the following has been said many times before.
An entire range of printer quality levels are available out there. From the quick-and-dirty shops, to the very best in the business. With each particular quality level are it's costs and benefits.

Identify those printers that offer you the most favorable cost to benefit ratio at each level of quality required for your needs. Then chose from your list, the printer that best fits your needs from job to job.

Printers are no different than restaurants. Some are fast-food and inexpensive while others are four-star and pricey.

Sounds like you got fast-food on this one my friend.
otherthoughts

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

Depends on your process. I prefer 100C 60-80%M depending on the blue I am after. If you need a dark blue 5-10K can take the purple edge off.
Note that the process does affect appearance, some papers can be different from one side to the other, also print order can make it tricky as printing the second side if the first side is still wet will give different properties.... but it is up to your printer to solve that, if they give you a proof they shoul match it.

 

[otherthoughts]

Depends on your process. I prefer 100C 60-80%M depending on the blue I am after. If you need a dark blue 5-10K can take the purple edge off.
Note that the process does affect appearance, some papers can be different from one side to the other, also print order can make it tricky as printing the second side if the first side is still wet will give different properties.... but it is up to your printer to solve that, if they give you a proof they shoul match it.

No arguments, fundamentally speaking, even the last sentence about matching the printer's proof.

However if the printer's proof includes with it a stipulation releasing the printer from any liability in the event that the final product differs substantially in color from the proof(essentially defeating any color meaning of the proof), and the customer accepts these terms by signing off on it at the dotted line. Legally it would seem that the customer has waived his right to any recourse regarding color.

Absent such a stipulation, you are darn right! The printer should match the proof in all respects!

Regards
otherthoughts