Color Management, Standard Densities, oh and some limitations

[Ryan-AK]

Hello All,
Trolling for some opinions.....

Here is my situation, via a merger, we now have an in house printing plant. (previously used various commercial printers) At this new printing plant we have some serious limitations. IMHO it is due to a lack of equipment, knowledge and training, when I brought up some of my concerns to the plant manager, his responses were so confident it made me second guess my own knowledge and experience. (about 8 years pre-press, some minor press operator time, have gone through entire shop certification before)

Below are my concerns and the limitations now being enforced with what I think are correct responses/fixes.

The Setup:
Presses:
2 Heidelberg SM102's 4C early 90's I think...they are about as basic as basic can be, no IR dryers, and I am sure they are missing any other add-ons that may exist.

Plates:
Kodak Trendsetter, Kodak Gold plates

Ink:
Not sure, they have said it is Soy based

Paper:
Typically House coated sheet, IE Unigloss, 70# or 80#

Color management:
What's that? Literally.. not even a densitometer on the press floor that has been calibrated in oh about.. 15 years...

Limitations:
No more than 240 Ink density
Explanation given: Anything more than that and off-setting occurs

No more than 3 colors in any build
Explanation given: Off-setting and too hard to hold.

No continuously repeating elements in a single pub, particularly solids
Explanation given: Jobs are often split between the two presses matching them at all is nearly impossible.

If we ignore these limitations, and even sometimes when we don't, what we get is dulled out colors that sometimes do not match between signatures (meaning off by more than 5-10%) or even worse we recently we had a basic red build that was off from one side of the sheet to the other by nearly 30%. In short there is next to no consistency.

So left in this situation my graphic artists have, just shy of a full on revolt, not been too happy. Our customers have not been happy either, they can not quite put their finger on it, but they notice the change.


The solutions, at least as I see it:

Variance in single runs and between presses should be solved by a back to basics approach of finding the best "standard" densities for that press and running them, consistently. Start with something somewhere in the range of:

C 1.45
M 1.45
Y 1.0
K 1.8

From there tweak a little as required, with an aim of getting linear, within reason of course. Once those values are found, run them, everytime. With minor allowances here and there for occasional pain in the a#$ job.

Is that off-base? When I brought this up to the Press Manager I was literally laughed at... It sounds right to me, it is what we did and got certified. His response was, "There is no way you could ever run "standard" densities. From that, and best I can tell, they eye-ball everything and or use densitometers that haven't been checked or recalibrated in over a decade.


Off-setting is a bit of a puzzle to me. There are of course a ton of variables. The first thing that jumped out at me is the lack of IR dryers, or any kind of dryer, as the sheet drops. Do those IR dryers really have that much of an effect? I asked about their fountain solution and the inks and was again not so politely chuckled at, again am I off-base here? Best I know those are the places to start.

They have almost zero HVAC as well and print with the doors to the building open at almost all times. They are located in SoCal close to the coast, so humidity and temperature change often throughout a day. That to me is another big problem, that was kind of sluffed off.

This ia a monster post, so I will chop it off here. I am sure you can imagine the other issues that come up. Any and all insight is greatly appreciated.

 

[Ironside]

Everything is solvable.

Everything is solvable.

The first question you need to ask yourself is do you have the authority to make changes on the production floor. If you do, you will have to tackle this problem at 3 levels. If you don't, get it because without it you will struggle.

#1. If the shop is having that much color variation you will need to institute a very aggressive press calibration and maintenance plan. Most older shops will allowed their roller calibrations and settings to drift out of specification and without an aggressive proactive management strategy even a new press will struggle to maintain consistency. This includes managing the environment and water quality, don't need to get crazy here but you are not running a auto repair garage, precision instruments need a reasonably consistent environment to work properly.

#2. Plan on making technology investments. If you have densitometers on the floor order new calibration cards and use them. If they do not have a dot gain measurement function you will need it. Solid Ink Density alone is not enough, kinda like a tachometer and a speedometer, a tachometer will help you get close to your target speed (solid ink density) but a speedometer tells you what is actually happening to color on the press sheet (dot gain).

Xrite makes a color control system that introduces a basic level of automated color bar scanning and management. It can't feed back into the presses but it does give the operator the information they need to manage a press sheet to target standards (both Solid Ink Density and Tonal Gain). A IR dryer on the delivery makes an enormous difference, cannot be overstated. Talk to Midland or equivalent about installation.

#3. Production employees (plant managers and others) many times have a defensive mind set. You will need to unseat them from this very tactfully. Explain to them where the company wants to be in 6 months and what they are going to have to do to get them there. YOU CANNOT FORCE THEM TO ADMIT THAT THEY NEED TO IMPROVE. Don't try it, it will threaten their since of self worth and job security. Instead, identify the problems, identify the goals and tell them to come up with a game plan to fix. Set milestones and expectations, and manage to them. Make sure that they understand not reaching them will be considered a failure and reaching them will be considered a success. Employees who reach successful goals for the company are keepers, ones that don't will require a decision from you, and yes this means replacement of that asset if necessary.

As far as target density there does not exist a gold standard but the numbers you have suggested are a good starting point for gloss coated. Color variation is more a function of dot gain and not solid ink density. So if your dot gain at 50% is say 18% than the solid ink density can vary by as much as .15 points and your color shifts will be subtle. Color management is all about DOT GAIN, DOT GAIN and DOT GAIN. Get your dot gains under control and then gray balance (the holly grail of color management) will follow.

Leadership requires you to set goals, set expectations and provide the appropriate support and reward for achievement. It also means you will need to make tough decisions, if you are fair and direct, your production staff will follow.

Good Luck!

 

[GazKL440]

Re press limitations

Re press limitations

Good answer Ironside, agreed on all points but you are probably more diplomatic than me!! My response would have been a little more along the lines of "shape up or ship out" to the press team.. im sorry but i have worked as a pressman for about 16yrs, and if ppl cant get a consistent job, particularily out of a speedy, with or without a densitometer, then they aint worth a pinch of sh*t! We run in an factory that has similar climate(brisbane australia), with similar climate control(roller doors) and any set off is very very rare, tell them to TURN UP the anti-set off spray...yes they may have to de-spray the odd job but thats preferrable to a re print or unhappy client...

we have run jobs with near full coverage on gloss with 280 density or more both sides with no set off, and damn near perfect consistency over hundreds of thousands of sheets.. i hate to say it but the fact that the manager laughs at you for inquiring about what is really a basic industry standard says volumes about why they cant do a decent job...good management leads to good results...

 

[gordo]

Adding on to Ironside's excellent points.
There is obviously a level of complacency at both the management and production levels. A "why fix it if it ain't broke" attitude. You may have a problem with the situation, however they do not see a problem - otherwise they would have fixed it already.
So, IMHO, one of the things that you will need to tackle is figuring out what the benefit in making changes is to those workers. In many shops, the production people (and even some management levels) have no understanding of how what they do relates to their job security, their company's survival/success, nor the value they provide to the printer's customers. Each day is just a series of jobs (problems) coming in at one end and going out the other. Individually there is no sense of accomplishment, there are no goals to strive for, there are no rewards for changing the status quo.
One way is the shape up or ship out attitude. Unfortunately, in my experience, this is not very effective unless you are prepared to fire everyone and start from scratch. Ideally you would instill a sense of enlightened self interest in the crews. They want to change things because they understand the benefits for them - not for you.

good luck, gordon p

my print blog here: Quality In Print current topic: The creative/production process - redux

 

[Ryan-AK]

Thank you for the input

Thank you for the input

Hello,
Thank you for your responses. At the moment I have total control up to the plates. I have been asked by one of our partners, the other has agreed, to step in and go beyond to solve the problem. Thus far I have actively been working towards correcting the lack of color management in pre-press up and to the plates with a pretty fair amount of luck.

As far as technology goes, we do have the X-Rite Eye-One Extreme, but I am still lacking something to read the plates with and a densitometer, that I know works properly. I am open and looking for suggestions but it would appear to me that an X-Rite 518 would be a good solution. Seems like it can measure just about everything we would need to get up to speed. Again the goal is not to become the new printer for the Pantone chip books, but to get some consistent good looking color without as many limitations.

I have no idea what sort of maintenance schedule they do or do not have for the presses and this is definitely my weak area. If I am following what Ironside is talking about and my understanding of offset printing is correct, then one of the issues may be that the water rollers and ink rollers may have drifted out of spec, which would cause increased dot gain and uneven/spotty ink coverage amongst other things.

My first thought in that area was to look at the fountain solution they were using because overall there is a muddy/dull look as compared to the same items printed at other shops before. I chose that route, and it was immediately dismissed by the way, because I had made the assumption (bad call on my part) that they were operating the press within specs.

I am going to make some calls and dig around for information on proper maintenance for the SM 102's If any one has a link/info or can point me in the right direction the help is greatly appreciated.

Unfortunately I am about 3,000 miles north of the printing plant and have only had about 20 minutes on the actual press floor, so also if anyone knows of a company, in the SoCal area, that would be willing to come in and do a "check-up" it may come to that.

On that Note, Ironside and Gordo, you hit the nail on the head. The attitudes are rough, and very defensive. At the core of it, the issue is the press floor team manager on down, have been in the mind set of, "we are our only customer" As such a lot of answers to my questions are "It's fine" or "That isn't a problem". In short if it is good enough for them, then the problem is not on the press floor and we should do something differently.

It is the first time I have ever dealt with a print plant that was not interested in doing better and more interested in just enough. The protective blanket that the manager attempts to use is the cost of doing things better. The challenge I have is to show that no, it is not going to take hundreds of thousands of dollars to bring us up to speed, but that yes, investing some money will make a difference.

Recently, we lost a source of revenue and one of the major factors in it was quality of the printed product (magazine). This is obviously bad for the business but good in terms of raising the standards. Also, because of that the ROI questions have disappeared and now it is more of a let's make sure we spend money on the right things.

Thank you Ironside for your guidance and input, you have obviously been to this dance before. Gordo you are absolutely right, one of the overwhelming things I saw when I was at the print plant was the general attitude of a whipped dog with a motto of "Just get it off the press before someone yells at you." Changing that is going to be a challenge. GazKL440 I must admit it was about all I could do to not reach out and ... bring the press manager a little closer.... to better explain things to him....

Thanks again guys! Lots of stuff to get me started, any other ideas or sources of information are appreciated, Monday will be a busy day for me!

 

[GazKL440]

Hello,


Thank you Ironside for your guidance and input, you have obviously been to this dance before. Gordo you are absolutely right, one of the overwhelming things I saw when I was at the print plant was the general attitude of a whipped dog with a motto of "Just get it off the press before someone yells at you." Changing that is going to be a challenge. GazKL440 I must admit it was about all I could do to not reach out and ... bring the press manager a little closer.... to better explain things to him....

Thanks again guys! Lots of stuff to get me started, any other ideas or sources of information are appreciated, Monday will be a busy day for me!

You are on the right track here!! listen to these guys they are spot on.. i simply cant abide "a thats good enough" attitude, but am well aware that ironside and gordo would get the better response from your team rather than my "send in the marines" call I think that perhaps your lack of experience on the floor could be a problem here, you will find that some ppl will get their hackles up being told by someone they consider to have no idea that they are not doin a good enough job... and will simply ignore your opinion entirely. Talk to management, they need to implement the changes required to make it all work..

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

Let the management know that forums like these exist and that the changes are not some dark secrets but well proven methods across the globe.

 

[Ironside]

Education Creates Empowerment

Education Creates Empowerment

Ryan,

Gordo has some extraordinarily useful information on his blog, I have used many parts of it to fine tune my own understanding of pressroom control.

Futher clarification on press and pressroom control. Knowing how a press moves the ink from the fountain to the plate is something that most pressman do not fully understand. They may know that moving this does that but not necessarily why.

But where there is a problem there is an opportunity.

If you can educate yourself on the underlying theories of ink transfer from the fountain to the plate, you can use this knowledge to educate a pressman to accomplish your production quality goals while also providing him/her a sense of personal growth and achievement. Some basic starting points for you to research and grow your knowledge base from.

Calibrations on a press are three area's.

#1. Gaps between your plate and blanket and blanket and impression cylinder. Buy a set of gap gauges and make sure the settings are correct. Too little gap creates dot gain/spread, too much gap poor transfer of ink (to the extreme both create a multitude of problems). This calibration is to the thousandths of an inch but its not difficult to set with the right tools.

#2. Plate and Blanket thickness and packing. If the Gaps are set correctly you need to make sure the plate and packing build up is correct, same goes for blanket and packing. To little not enough pressure, too much to much pressure. most presses will function properly within .001" inch just read the manual and adjust packing accordingly.

#3. Roller settings. Three area's here. Water, Ink Form and Distributor, listed in order of their importance to print quality. The most typical setting criteria for rollers is nip width, which is the amount of surface area each roller has in contact with adjoining rollers. This contact area will dictate how the roller transfers its surface product to the next roller. Whether its ink or water. You will probably find specs between 3mil and 6mil depending on the roller to roller combination. Nip should be even and consistent across the roller and no low spots and swelling. The water system should be calibrated a minimum of once a week, from the pan roller to the water form (the water metering roller should be checked at the start of each shift). Takes about 10 minutes a unit once you get the hang of it. Ink forms are the rollers that actually put ink on the plate, these should be calibrated a minimum of once a month. And finally distributor rollers, these transfer the ink from the fountain to the ink forms, these typically do not all have nip settings but function as both adjustable nip widths and simply even across the roller settings. check these once a quarter to begin with. If after time you find very little drift or variation you can extend the time between each calibration. If press is falling out of calibration quickly check to make sure the rollers, bearings or other mechanical component isn't flawed. If unable to calibrate to your satisfaction talk to your roller manufacturer about replacement. Good Ink Form Rollers last about a year, distributor rollers longer, water metering rollers about 6 months and water forms about 9 months. This is just my experience so please form a relationship with a roller manufacturing for more specific performance expectations.

Once you have your press calibrated correctly you will see something amazing happen, it will perform properly bring the color up to a specific density and holding that density for the entire run. I will give you a hint and you may have to research just bit to truly understand the concept but here it is. Ink and water trains move the exact same thickness of product down to the plate no matter what the coverage is, the difference is simply how fast it moves it. High coverage requires more ink and water usage thus a faster transfer. Calibrations determine the transfer speed between rollers to rollers and ultimately to the plate. Control the calibrations, control the transfer speed, control the quality.

Once you educate yourself you can use this understanding to win the trust and appreciation of your pressroom staff. Once they feel they are learning from you they will most probably want to impress you with their mastery of this new knowledge and competency. So ultimately you are not dragging them into a high performance shop but simply steering them in the right direction.

Here is the simple rule, in a press room, knowledge is power. If your staff see's you as a source of Knowledge they will follow. If you transfer this knowledge to them they will feel empowered. Empowered employees need to be guided and not managed.

And remember, any advice is worth only what you pay for it.......so I'll leave it at that.

Good Luck and make sure you visit Gordo's blog.

 

[otherthoughts]

Outstanding Thread

Outstanding Thread

Excellent thread and posts by everyone!!

With all the talent available here, including the OP.

I can only imagine Ryan's production staff growing, both in terms of quality control and teamwork!

I humbly offer only these two links. Thanks mainly to the pool of talent preceding me having left so very few stones unturned

PP thread that might add something?
Have you worked on both sides of the divide?

From Gordo's Blog
Cross-Training

Best - OT

 

[Ironside]

Otherthoughts - Great Observation

Otherthoughts - Great Observation

I wanted to follow up on my previous thoughts and comment on Otherthoughts entries.

My background is much more limited than all these Gents, I inherited a small printing company from my deceased father in 2003, no experience - no knowledge - no clue! We originally started as 2 color shop, then moved to 4 color presses and ultimately to Gracol Certified pressroom controls etc. In each of these steps and stages the learning was extraordinarily painful and expensive. Ink Trapping, tack, density, offset, slur, gain, mottle the list goes on, each lesson a job gone south, a new lesson learned and more money out of my pocket. Many times I wanted to quit, too hard, pressman to stubborn, no profit this sucks!

But alas, after 6 years we have quadrupled our sales, our press sheets match our proofs (< 4 delta difference) 95% of the time (pastels still kill us) and we have established a very strong reputation in our business community. If I could start again I would of done many things differently but to be honest I do not believe it would of been easier.

Ryan, the thing that got me through it was simple, I refused to fail. You will face many days, weeks, even months of back slides, mistakes and frustration. But if you stick with it, if you commit yourself to succeeding you will.

Luck favors those who want it most. I liken running a printing company to my golf game, if I simply try to score lower I get frustrated, but if I break it down into parts, stance, grip, backswing etc I can see ever so slow improvement in the outcomes.

You are on the right track, break the production process into components, work on those components and you will achieve your goals.

Our next endeavor will be VDP solutions, and thankfully my team is actually as excited as me about this new challenge...............what a difference 6 years makes.

As a final note, turn up the music sometimes, just because its hard doesn't mean you and your team can't have fun!

 

[GazKL440]

As a final note, turn up the music sometimes, just because its hard doesn't mean you and your team can't have fun!

Its amazing how much a difference good moral can make to a team People simply respond better, make that little extra effort, smile when they work and sort problems without the drama they would normally require!

Spend some time in the pressroom, bounce some ideas off the boys with the spanners, and you will possibly be suprised at the results you get, and the ideas that may get bounced back!

If you have enough time spend shift or 2 on the floor and get a better understanding of what really goes on down there, work to gain the trust of the pressroom and they will work with you rather than against you, and their attitude will surely shift from "just run it off" to "its run when its right", and quality will improve along with the attitude. Where i work, we get on well with our pre press dept, with the result being that we all work well together

 

[Bretman]

Wow you couldn't ask for a better thread forum.

Wow you couldn't ask for a better thread forum.

Hi guys,
I just poped in here because I got a message from Corey in my mailbox and hadn't been here for a while. I was sufing the threads and ran across this one. I must say this is quite an interesting thread subjet; Wow.

First my Kudos to Ironside!! If you just got into printing in 2003, and have advanced your knowledge to the point of writing your posts here, you have done a great job of absorbing this business. I am a thirty year veteran printer, and when reading your post was thinking you were around the same. The fact that your shop has progressed as you have stated is also an outstanding accomplishment. If you have need of a good employee let me know.

Ryan-AK
I am in Central Cal and wouldn't mind seeing this operation you speak of. I would have to wonder if this pressteam has ever had to sell something or what?? I mean the attitude I understand that is being portrayed cannot fly if you wish to retain any customers. This shop you inherited sounds like something someone was desperate to unload. These guys seem to have forgotten what craftmanship is all about.
Your desire and expectations sound reasonable certainly. If your company is truly willing to make the investment to improve this facility, then I would think their standards can truly be improved. Anyway, you asked for someone whom could eyeball things, so where in so Cal is this at? If I could help I am game.

Bretman

 

[PDeuth]

Further thoughts:

Further thoughts:

Others have made the points, but perhaps I can put things into a helpful perspective. There is variation in any system or process. Those parts which exibit variation are called variables. Variables occur in two classes: dependent variables, and independent variables. What distinguishes them is the aim of the particular system or process under consideration. Input, or independent, variables are what Ironside described in packing, pressure settings, and roller settings. Other independent variables include ink viscosity, fountain conductivity and temperature, press speed, and the temperature at the nip.

Dependent variables include dot gain, trapping, and even solid ink densities. I can think of six differrent ways to change the 50% dot, all of which have other (unintended) consequences, for instance. Monitoring dependent or output variables alone is insufficient or inadequate to operating a printing press system consistently and predictably. The need to do so has never been more significant than in a CTP workflow. If you are still using film, and using the same film to image both your plates and proofs, your system is integrated. If it's digital, however, the color data flows have parted ways, and it becomes necessary to make plates and proof based upon press conditions.

Plating and proofing according to press tests/profiles is a problem. The success of the color reproduction system becomes dependent upon the weakest element, the most variable element, in that system - the printing press. Your press operator will still run the press to match the proof, as he/she must. The client has signed off on that proof, and it is your legal responsibility, literally, to match it. If your plates and proofs are incapable of providing a match due to differences in either input data, or in the interpretation of that data by the output devices (proofer or platemaker) then your press operator will have a devil of a time making the system work, and of fulfilling your contractual obligations.

This makes having repeatable, stable press conditions a necessity. The only way to achieve those conditions is through work on the independent or input variables. We, as an industry, are only beginning to realize this. The color reproduction system is, well, a system. It runs well only when operated as such. Start with the key independent variables. Get a packing gauge and use it daily. Track ink roller durometer. Pay attention to the condition of your blankets. Use a torque wrench on blankets and plates. Season your paper as much as possible. Monitor your press runs and the amount of variability you exhibit. Learn how much your color changes when the press is stable, so you can predict your output, have a benchmark for future improvements, and inform the press operator when he's making a positive adjustment, or only tampering with a press exhibiting normal, stable variation. Keep score, practice statistical process control, if you dare.

Start with the basics, however. And be consistent. Set standards for independent variables, as well as for output variables, and hold people accountable. Remember, if your plates and proofs are based upon press profiles and/or press operating conditions, then, if you change those conditions your data, and the plates and proofs based upon that data, become meaningless.

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

If you are still using film, and using the same film to image both your plates and proofs, your system is integrated. If it's digital, however, the color data flows have parted ways, and it becomes necessary to make plates and proof based upon press conditions.

I would say that isn't true up to the film you hava a common way, but from then on it is "you take the high road and I take the low road". There are too many dependant and independant variabes on the road from film to proof.

Some roads may be more dissimilar but meet in the end. This is our experience with digital proofs. We had a long period of overlap, so it's not just guess work. Most film to proof flows do not have a great deal of options to affect those variables.