Considering a switch from a Mac to a PC workflow

[brockp28]

Hi guys,

See title...

Our focus in the colour area is a fair split between digital and offset printing. With the digital side consisting of approximately 50% VDP and the rest standard run stuff, flyers/brochures, annual reports, etc etc... The companies main focus though is in programming, digital black and white overprinting, ie. statements, rates notices, etc... with offerings for customers to use digital distribution for their notices, as well as online archiving and online retrieval systems.

In terms of the colour side, we use Heidelberg Prinect workflow for the offset side of things.

Adobe CS 5.5 right now, with XMPie for VDP, and also Pitstop Pro for PDF manipulation etc.

We are currently on a Mac based system, and are looking at a switch to PCs because it would allow our Prepress guys to handle data a lot better as our programmers obviously work from PCs, and we are tied in a lot with them. It would enable us to process our own data using in-house developed applications.

Anyway, what issues could I potentially run into with the switch? We have had some feedback from one of our major design agencies that feed us work, and they brought up the issue of Mac fonts not working with PCs (we get packaged indesign files from them for variable work) - can this be worked around? I believe there is software out there that can easily convert a mac font to be used on PC, TransType comes to mind, it just has to be reliable!

Also, no issues regarding cross-compatibility of indesign files etc.? I assume it will be fine.

Any feedback/suggestions welcome

Brock

 

[Candide17]

...and they brought up the issue of Mac fonts not working with PCs (we get packaged indesign files from them for variable work) - can this be worked around? I believe there is software out there that can easily convert a mac font to be used on PC, TransType comes to mind, it just has to be reliable!

Also, no issues regarding cross-compatibility of indesign files etc.? I assume it will be fine.


Brock

Hello brockp28,

In first, I apologize for my awful English, I'm french ...

For my part, I use Extensis Suitcase Fusion X3 with Adobe Font Folio 9 Mac on Windows 7 64 bits ; all mac fonts have been recognizing without problem.
My PC run QuarkXpress v9.1, Indesign CS5.5 and the mac files conversion works very well.

Best Regards.

Fabrice.

 

[DCurry]

The approach I would take would be to install an emulator like Parallels or VM Fusion which will allow you to run Windows concurrently on the Mac.

If the customer is using TrueType or OpenType fonts then you should be okay because they are cross-platform. I would not feel comfortable with Mac-to-PC font conversion software - sooner or later it's going to burn you so you would need to be hyper-vigilant about checking the work. As a customer, I would not feel comfortable sending work to a shop if I found out they did this.

Other than the font issue, the cross-platform conversion should be smooth.

 

[rich apollo]

I've been on both sides of the issue. I started out on PCs and moved over to Macs later.

Something else that needs to be considered is the cost of supporting the PCs vs the cost to support the current Mac workstations. This is often overlooked. I rarely see IT people on staff to support Mac departments - I almost always see IT people on staff to support PCs. If you have the resources available to absorb the support and implementation needs of another PC-based department, then it may be worth looking at.

At any rate, a cost-benefit analysis needs to be run. You say that a switch to PCs "…would allow our Prepress guys to handle data a lot better…" What does that look like? What does it mean in monetary terms? Can you reduce staff? Would this increase throughput to a measurable degree? How will this effect your current staff? How much will they be alienated? How much will they have to re-learn? How would future staffing be affected? Can you find PC knowledgeable applicants with the skill set you need as easily as you can find Mac-based applicants? You're identifying potential negatives, can they be quantified?

Another potential throughput issue has to do with hardware - or, more specifically, how the operating systems can address hardware. Windows is limited in it's use of RAM in ways that OSX is not. Typical Windows installations cannot address more than 4GB of RAM (the last time I checked). When I was looking, the cost of getting a version of Windows that would address 8GB of RAM was significant - very significant.

I don't really see how you would benefit from moving to PCs, but I don't have a complete understanding of your workflow, needs, and/or goals. Personally, I like my Macs. There are just a whole bunch of things that I don't want to have to concern myself with on the PC side.

 

[Joe Duffy]

I think Dan has given you a better, more robust solution as you will be able to support both platforms. But you need to be aware that you will have to purchase software for both platforms - Mac and PC - instead of just one. You will, as he stated, watch for reflow and the such of type and watch name conventions if you go to a pc solution.

 

[lfelton]

First of all, I need to "declare an interest". You would have to prise my cold dead hand off of my magic trackpad before I would use a PC again day to day. I love my Mac and thunderbolt display, full stop.

But personally, I'd be wary of running anything resource intensive through parallels. I have version 7 with a win7 install on my i7 mac (still running nice fast snow leopard, not lion) and it's fine for running basic stuff, but is pretty near to useless with anything resource intensive. If your in-house apps are in the former category, fine, otherwise I'd try before you buy. Also, I've found that there are lots of windows apps that don't run on parallels "out of the box" so there may be some serious support time required there.

Sorry, not much experience of mac->pc InDesign, but what we have done has been pretty problem free. Our workflow is all PDF, we charge to process InDesign files.

Our fully automated workflow is based around Unix and the semi automated stuff is done on PCs. I'm just upgrading those to the latest i7 quad core PCs running 64bit win7, 8GB memory, 2GB graphics accelerator, and solid state disk accelerators. I have to say that (as my American cousins would say), those kick serious butt. The speed increase over our ratty old (2 yo) dual cores with Vista is staggeringly, stupidly, big.

FWIW - just my 2p's worth: Macs for everyday use, PC workstations for heavy duty file crunching at a reasonable price (similar spec Macs are madly expensive).

 

[curveto]

Another potential throughput issue has to do with hardware - or, more specifically, how the operating systems can address hardware. Windows is limited in it's use of RAM in ways that OSX is not. Typical Windows installations cannot address more than 4GB of RAM (the last time I checked). When I was looking, the cost of getting a version of Windows that would address 8GB of RAM was significant - very significant.

FWIW: Both of those thoughts are no longer valid (haven't been for a long time). The machine I'm writing this on has 8GB of RAM (and uses it all just fine). The only reason it doesn't have 24+GB of RAM (like the desktop it's next to) is because SoDIMMs with that density don't exist yet (unless your corporate trademark is Cray ).

On the other hand, my MBP (the other way) also has 8GB, runs about the same speed (forgiving OS X's awesome boot/shutdown perf, that is) as this one... (both have 6Gb/s SSDs which helps TREMENDOUSLY). I *just* switched the MBP from a spinner to an SSD and now running Windows in a VM (VirtualBox) there no longer sucks (it used to be horrid when the I/O was crippled).

Just say'n...

 

[brockp28]

Thanks for the responses!

We have definitely taken into consideration a lot of those questions rich! Our pre-press/digital colour department is small (one Indigo operator, two pre-press staff, one looks after offset, the other digital + VDP.)

A switch would not affect staff in any way, as both our pre-press operators are savvy on both platforms. As for the IT support, the rest of our company is PC based, and we have one IT Administrator supporting the lot. I probably should have mentioned that where I work, is rather small, a total of around forty employees.

The PCs these days are alot better, simply due to the fact you can run infinite amount of RAM with a 64 bit system, our current Mac workstations are running with 16GB each, we would request the equivalent in our new PCs as well.

The only major concern I have at the moment is the font conversion, honestly. All other indications are good. I might go with Dan's suggestion to test it for a while before we commit to a purchase.

Dan, question - when you mention run Windows 7 concurrently on our Macs, are you talking Bootcamp? Or are Parallels/Fusion better alternatives?

 

[DCurry]

Dan, question - when you mention run Windows 7 concurrently on our Macs, are you talking Bootcamp? Or are Parallels/Fusion better alternatives?

No, not Bootcamp. That would require you to reboot your Mac every time you want to switch platforms. Parallels and Fusion allow you to have Windows running at the same time under an emulator. I think you can even drag-and-drop between the 2 operating systems.

 

[David Milisock]

I can only give you the results of my 37 years of experience, due to extreme costs compared to the PC in pre-press about 8 years ago we stopped supporting the MAC, we accept MAC files only as press ready PDF files for print.

With that said we also broadened our product offerings to include anything graphic, a logo on a pen, a book, a 6 page stringer or a sign that's 85' in the air.

RIP's include Meta, Harliquin, Rampage, VersaWorks, ImagePrint, Onyx to mention a few. The reality of the graphics industry is that it's changing in a big way, the death of many companies are regularly reported so im my opinion money talks and BS walks and the MAC is except in certain circumstances irrelivant.

When Apple moved to the Intel platform I was hoping to see a serious alternative to MicroSoft unfortunately Apple has decided to sell music and according to my tech guys, for business use, a second rate phone.

We run all Windows, XP 32 bit, Vista 32 bit, Windows 7- 32 and 64 bit. Primary drives are SSD, (make sure you have all firmware updates for the SSD's) secondary drives are all 10,000 RPM SATA Raptors, Gigabyte networks and (not needed but nice in large installs) network appliances locking out internet access.

 

[kaiserwilhelm]

I am over a prepress and data processing department. We mail in excess of 700 million pieces per year.
We utilize Macs for prepress. We utilize PCs for data processing layout.
However, the kicker, that has made our jobs (and our future) much better is this.
We use GMC Inspire (formerly Print Net T). We "bebop" back and forth between the platforms as Inspire is also native OS X.
If I do an "Export all included", my fonts, graphics, etc, roll seamlessly onto my PCs.
We have done this for over a year now, with zero problems?
Personally, if I had my druthers, my dp team would be on macs. I would either have paralells running Windows 7 with my data manipulation software running on that virtual world.
In fact, I have on my machine (a mac pro tower with 32 gigs of ram and ssd drives) that exact setup.
To say that I BLOW the pcs our of the water is an understatement.
Now to just convince the powers that be that data processing does not have to live in a pc world.
A Mac pro Tower with 32 gigs and ssd drives in under $3,000 (refurbished and self install on the drives and ram).

 

[David Milisock]

>In fact, I have on my machine (a mac pro tower with 32 gigs of ram and ssd drives) that exact setup.
To say that I BLOW the pcs our of the water is an understatement.
Do you have any PC's configured with 32 gigs of RAM and an SSD?

>Personally, if I had my druthers, my dp team would be on macs.
Why? ICC compliance andf all the aps run on PC's and most RIPS are PC only now.

 

[kaiserwilhelm]

No, I do not have any pcs configured that way.
We have found that a purely mac environment is more conducive to our workflow. We have a large number intensive graphical jobs in prepress.
We did have a PC configured with CS 5. We found it clunky.
To each their own. I am simply stating that we did the opposite. We have tried a purely mac environment and it is working out well. We will expand it onto more macs soon.

 

[David Milisock]

>No, I do not have any pcs configured that way.
This is what I thought, I rarely see PC MAC comparisons where the systems are equaly configured. As one of my companies is a hardware/software support company we see them all from Unix to Micro Soft and currently the only reason I see for MAC machines is the support of native application files created on a MAC. I wonder how you can justify your comparison if you do not have a PC and a MAC with equal configurations?

>We did have a PC configured with CS 5. We found it clunky.
I have CS 5.5 on a Windows 7 64 bit system with 16 gigabytes of RAM and an SSD with a gigabyte Nvidia video card and gigabyte network and I can confirm that on this system Adobe software is a poor performer when compared to other graphics applications. However as demonstrated by the posts on the Adobe forum on this site it seems to me that the PC version may have a leg up on the MAC version. I cannot judge though as the only MAC systems I know of running Adobe products are not serious contenders to the PC's I use. Acrobat is unstable for me on 32 bit Vista and Windows 7 64 bit systems always has been on our old MAC systems and Windows XP Pro systems.

 

[Possumgal]

Another benefits of PCs is that you won't have to buy new computers just to upgrade software should Apple vastly change its operating system or chips again. Been burned twice now.

 

[David Milisock]

NET FRAME seems to be the must upgrade issue for some software applications. Of course it's free as a Windows update and in my opinion you want the MS version and not what ships with your software.