Upgrading from Xerox V180. Options?

[lantz_xvx]

Yikes, 200K every month? Even if you had a brand-new Versant 280 you’d be seeing a tech every other week or more. If you want to stay with Xerox you should be looking at the 4100 with that type of volume.

Lol, my bad, I was looking at an invoice but it only shows the clicks and not pages. Went to the usage counter on the machine and it actually averages out to like 20k per month. So..... big difference! We outsource a lot of very high volume stuff but especially as turnaround times shrink we are wanting to do more in-house especially if it's just simple CMYK. The 4100 seems like too much for us but they actually don't sell the 3100 new anymore. The 280 still seems like a good option but if it's already 3 years old, a lease would take us pretty far beyond its potential obsolescence.

 

[Ynot_UK]

For 200k monthly volume, irrespective of manufacturer, IMO you'd be better off spreading the load across two machines, to give redundancy.

EDIT: my comment above not applicable in this instance now, since the OP and I posted simultaneously!

 

[azehnali]

This makes a lot of sense since it takes longer to get the BTR out of the box than it does to install it. Unfortunately, there are some bean counters that think it’s less expensive to have a tech stop at the office, pick one up and then drive to the customer and install it. All because they don’t want a $500 part sitting on the shelf, down time means little to Xerox. To the credit of Xerox, they have made the majority of serviceable parts simple for a trained user to replace but they just haven’t put the effort into implementing a good program.


Xerox recently raised the recommended average monthly volume on the Versant 280 and 4100. With no technical improvements the Versant 280 jumped from 80,000 pages per month to 150,000 pages per month!

it probably costs xerox less than $100 for the part
I am a dealer and all my customers who are savvy do it themselves

 

[lantz_xvx]

For 200k monthly volume, irrespective of manufacturer, IMO you'd be better off spreading the load across two machines, to give redundancy.

EDIT: my comment above not applicable in this instance now, since the OP and I posted simultaneously!

Sorry about that! I have no way of having an official count because we impose everything as much as we possible can, and while most of our paper is cutsheet digital size, some papers are bought as parent sheets and cut down to custom sizes. I have my sales rep checking on the numbers, I should have a more accurate number on Monday but still not gonna be 200k. We were also shut down for a good 3-4 months because of COVID so that skews the numbers as well. He's going to look pre-March 2020 and after February 2021.

Anyhoo..

 

[lantz_xvx]

it probably costs xerox less than $100 for the part
I am a dealer and all my customers who are savvy do it themselves

I've never actually installed one, no one has ever showed or left a spare behind. I feel like most of the downtime is waiting for the tech to come by and say "yep, it's the second BTR" and then order it and then come back. I know what a BTR failure looks like so now when I say that's what it is, they generally bring one with them and just check to make sure it's actually that before they install. But yeah, would love it if I could just have a few extra commonly replaced parts around so I could just do it myself.

 

[Ynot_UK]

I have no way of having an official count

The "official count" is the number of clicks you are charged for on an average month.
Ideally broken down into Colour clicks and B/W clicks
That's what @PricelineNegotiator was asking

 

[lantz_xvx]

The "official count" is the number of clicks you are charged for on an average month.
Ideally broken down into Colour clicks and B/W clicks
That's what @PricelineNegotiator was asking

If it's clicks, then it's around 9k for black and 21k for CMYK, monthly average, which includes the COVID closure. So roughly 30k clicks per month, but closer to 20k pages per month.

 

[azehnali]

I've never actually installed one, no one has ever showed or left a spare behind. I feel like most of the downtime is waiting for the tech to come by and say "yep, it's the second BTR" and then order it and then come back. I know what a BTR failure looks like so now when I say that's what it is, they generally bring one with them and just check to make sure it's actually that before they install. But yeah, would love it if I could just have a few extra commonly replaced parts around so I could just do it myself.

it takes a few prints to diagnose the problem

 

[Make_It_So]

Hey folks,

We are nearing the end of our lease on the Xerox V180 and we have been having a lot of issues with it. We have to place a service call every other week, on average, for issues with the 2nd BTR, the little plastic rollers that, if messed up, prevent paper from feeding from the high capacity trays, and lots of other stupid little things. We are also in the middle of a billing issue from July where they billed us for CEL clicks we never used, so I called them that day to see if they wanted me to just supply the actual number and subtract that charge from the invoice and pay the balance. No response. I sent many emails and tried calling many times over the next few months, and only now, at the end of October, does it seem like it might be getting resolved. This happened one other time before and it's a total nightmare because if you have outstanding invoices (I made clear that we would not pay incorrect invoices, but would happily pay promptly as soon as the issue was resolved), they won't ship your supplies or release service calls. It makes it very difficult to function as a business when no one responds to your questions, places a block on your supplies (and won't tell you), and blocks your service calls (but won't tell you) until you call and go up the chain of command.

Anyway, all that is to say that we may not want to stay with Xerox given all of us. There's really no reason for this level of incompetence. At the same time, we are familiar with the Versant machines and the easiest thing is to just get the next machine up and call it a day. I'm not sure what to do, probably any company will have its share of crappy customer service situations. But we are thinking of upgrading to either the V280, which I realize is a slightly older machine at this point, or switching machines entirely and going with something like a Ricoh.

We do postcards, business cards, books and booklets, posters, etc, ranging on stocks from 70# text to 100# silk text and to 130# cover. This machine won't auto-duplex 130# cover so we are looking for a machine that will. We do all of our finishing offline so don't need integrated bookletmaking or anything like that. The first digital press we ever had was a Konica and I have serious PTSD from it. Can't go back! Then we had a Xerox C75, then the V180. I've seen other threads where people lament the registration of the V180 or the color, but we actually have not had any of those issues. The SIQA works way better on this machine than it did on the C75, registration does shift a little bit here and there but such is digital printing. I've never used a Ricoh so wouldn't know what their analog to a V280 would be. Anyone have any insights? I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks,
- Lantz

I have current PTSD with our C6100 and C14000 (the 14000 is down a LOT more often). The techs are great but they don't have enough of them to accommodate the down-time. It may be different in your neck of the woods.

 

[SoggyWinter]

Buy a 2nd BTR from GMSupplies or eBay to keep running and put the bad one back in just before the service tech shows up.

 

[tngcas]

When we had our two V2100s the Xerox techs literally kept an entire cabinet of spare parts in our shop to prevent the "running back to the warehouse" for parts issue. Is that something they can do for you? If the 2nd BTR fails regularly then having a spare on there and then when they use it they order a new one to replace the spare would save a lot of downtime and annoyance.

 

[lantz_xvx]

When we had our two V2100s the Xerox techs literally kept an entire cabinet of spare parts in our shop to prevent the "running back to the warehouse" for parts issue. Is that something they can do for you? If the 2nd BTR fails regularly then having a spare on there and then when they use it they order a new one to replace the spare would save a lot of downtime and annoyance.

They would never do that for us, we are not a big enough account for them. I remember when we had our C75 and it was breaking down all the time as it was toward the end of its life, I would have to outsource (not really outsource because we paid close to retail) to another shop that did short run digital printing. I'd go to pick up and they'd have shelves full of toner and drums. During this time, getting supplies was like pulling teeth. If you're a big account and have more than one machine, they'll do whatever it takes to keep you happy and running. If you're a small shop that's just a line item for them, they'll gladly let you run out of essentials. Fortunately these days I don't have much trouble getting supplies, and also lately the techs have been coming quickly and will expedite shipping of parts directly to us so they can come the next day. But I do wish they had a bunch of extras around that they know they'll have to replace. I wouldn't say the 2nd BTR fails regularly, but we run a lot of coated stock and it just is what it is. I know what it looks like as soon as it starts happening.

 

[lantz_xvx]

Hey all. Just an update. We spoke with a Ricoh reseller and are interested in the Rich Pro C7500. It's a lot more expensive than what our current lease on the V180 is. I'm sure it's partly because the machine is much newer and more robust but also the interest rates are total trash right now. The thing that's interesting to me is this "5th color station" wherein you can run fluorescents, clear, white, etc. The samples they dropped off look fantastic, but it adds a whole new layer of prepress and training in terms. I go back and forth between whether it would open doors to new markets for us, or if it would just be a risky investment that we wouldn't make back.

I also realized that Heidelberg makes a digital press called the Versafire. I'm sure it's way too expensive for us but one thing I noticed is that it also has that 5th color thing going for it. So I wonder if that's just something that more and more digital presses are going to have going forward, and if the market for people wanting smaller runs of specialty printing like that will open up. Has anyone here used one of those 5th color machines and have any input? I'm still waiting on pricing on a V280 but I wonder if sticking with a machine like that would sort of make us lag behind.

- Lantz

 

[Ynot_UK]

I also realized that Heidelberg makes a digital press called the Versafire.

They are re-badged Ricoh machines, with Heidelberg's Prinect DFE

 

[lantz_xvx]

They are re-badged Ricoh machines, with Heidelberg's Prinect DFE

Ah, that makes sense, they looked similar on the inside. Any experience with these?

 

[Ynot_UK]

Ah, that makes sense, they looked similar on the inside. Any experience with these?

Not here, we're KM. Sorry.

 

[pippip]

The Ricoh 7500 would be next step up from V180/V280 family. Ricoh C5300 would be the directly comparable to V180/V280.
For more than CYMK with Xerox you're into Iridesse comparisons (although the V280 does have an adapter kit available).
C7500 without 5th colour would be versus Xerox V4100.
Just be aware outside CYMK the specialist toner is generally not included in standard click rates.

 

[lantz_xvx]

The Ricoh 7500 would be next step up from V180/V280 family. Ricoh C5300 would be the directly comparable to V180/V280.
For more than CYMK with Xerox you're into Iridesse comparisons (although the V280 does have an adapter kit available).
C7500 without 5th colour would be versus Xerox V4100.
Just be aware outside CYMK the specialist toner is generally not included in standard click rates.

Thanks for this, it's super helpful. I forgot that the Iridesse even existed, it was not something that was relevant or that we were ready for when I last looked at it. Even looking at the duty cycle now, it seems like too much machine for us and I'm not even sure we have room for it. Cool that it can do up to 6 colors. Still not sure we will venture into the 5th color territory but it's good to look at all the options.

 

[Robohopar]

Been running the Konica C7090 for about a year now. I have a bit over 900k clicks, yes it's had its share of issues, but service is always on top of the consumables. Can't say I'm unhappy with it but I must say that iq501 is a lifesaver.

I run 100lb gloss text/cover, 16pt C2S and 20/60lb paper through it all day. We also have the envelope fuser which helps us.

Definitely want to also try the Ricoh 7 or 9 series also. Do your research on all types of machines before pulling the trigger. I thought the 7090 is too much machine for me a year ago, now I'm sending less out to offset and printing more in house (relative to what I was doing in the past)