Costs of a Printing Press vs Prepress Hardware/Software

[pcmodem]

I was just reading in another forum how the person was saying when you buy a Printing Press you will be able to use it enough long time to pay it and earn money before having to replace it. This person went on to say software is expensive and before they have earned money with the current version of software they have to upgrade to a newer version.

The cost of a single Press is significantly more expensive than a Prepress workstation with software. The single workstation can produce work to keep several presses busy.

Lets say the cost of a workstation is $3,000 and you make the machine last 3 years before you have to replace it. Initial software purchase for Creative Suite Premium $1,800. Adobe software upgrades normally come out every 18 months and the upgrade cost is $600. Quark is $800 and upgrades are $300 with upgrade releases averaging about every 3 years. Lets also say you spend $500 for Misc software per year. For 20 years you would spend: Workstation $21,000; Adobe $9,600; Quark $2,600; and Misc $10,000. For a 20 year grand Total of $43,200.

Lets consider the price of a Press and having it last 20 years plus the cost of your rollers and replacing other worn out parts.

I would say the single workstation is cheaper than a single press unless you are running an AB Dick, Hamada, etc. The single workstation can also drive multiple presses so it does end up in being cheaper than the press room.

 

[Prepress_Parasite]

What they don't realize is without that workstation their press will sit idle 8)
Software is expensive but without it your press will not run.

 

[RGPW17100]

A printing press has a better chance of producing $2k/day then a prepresss computer. It takes prepress just as long to work on and plate a 100 sheet run as it does a 40K run however it takes press and bindery a lot longer to produce these jobs. At our work we are noticing a lot more larger runs however our prepress can not find enough work for 8 hour days. Billable time is a lot higher on the press as well due to the higher cost of the operator and the machine.

 

[claude72]

I was just reading in another forum how the person was saying when you buy a Printing Press you will be able to use it enough long time to pay it and earn money before having to replace it.

Yes, and I guess that it's me!

This person went on to say software is expensive and before they have earned money with the current version of software they have to upgrade to a newer version.

I'm aware that it's perhaps a little bit exagerate...

... but not so much: when I upgraded to CS3, it cost me 5500 euros (= 7300 $)... and when the CS4 has been released 14 monthes later, I'm quite sure that I didn't had earn 5500 euros with my new-but-now-obsolete workstation!!!

Lets say the cost of a workstation is $3,000 and you make the machine last 5 years before you have to replace it.

5 years is quite long : it means 4 Adobe versions...
- generally, the first version matches with the computer and works fine...
- the second version begins to be a little bit slow...
- the third version is really slow...
- and the fourth version has become so huge and so slow on this 4-and-an-half years computer, that it runs at the "speed" of a turttle with rheumatisms, and it is not reasonnable to work with such an old computer!

Initial software purchase for Creative Suite Premium $1,800. Adobe software upgrades normally come out every 18 months and the upgrade cost is $600. Quark is $800 and upgrades are $300 with upgrade releases averaging about every 3 years. Lets also say you spend $500 for Misc software per year.

You forget 2 things in your post...

1- it's possible to work with a second (or third) hand press... but it's impossible to work in pre-press with second-hand DTP softwares, and difficult to work with second-hand imagesetters and RIPs.
(most of my problems happen because I have second-hand imagesetters and second-hand RIPs)


2- simply look at my location, and go to the french Apple-store and Adobe-store, convert the french prices in dollars and compare: the change-rate is actually about 0.75 euros = 1 dollar... but:

- the prices of Apple's computers sold in France are quite different of the change rate applied to the US price, and Mac are quite more expensive for me than for you: for example, a Mac Pro that you pay 2499 $ costs 2299 euros (= 3065 $) in France

- Adobe is charging (high) extras fees for the localization of softwares: you pay 1799 $ for the Premium CS4 (599 $ for an update), but I pay 2199 euros (= 2930 $) for the same CS4 in french language and 749 euros (= 1000$) for the update.
(and I cannot buy a US CS in France...)

- I trust you for the US price of QuarkXPress and upgrade... but the french prices are 1350 euros (= 1800 $) for the initial purchase and 400 euros (= 530 $) for the upgrade to version 8 from any other version

- your 500 $ of misc. (mainly the updates for PitStop, the scanner driver, a good spell-checker and some plug-ins) is quite correct in dollars and in the USA, but again the change-rate is not exactly applied and some localization fees are added...

... and then you have only built a design workstation

... but to built a pre-press complete workstation, you have to add the RIP/workflow, the proofing system, the imposition software and the platesetter: I know a printer who has bought a brand new design/pre-press system 2 years ago, and for an 8 pages platesetter (72 x 102 cm, 40 inches wide) + Prinergy + Preps + installation and training + 3 Mac workstations (for both design and pre-press), he had to pay about 250,000 euros (= 333,000 $)...

I don't know how much he has to pay for the servicing contract of the platesetter and workflow, but it's generally quite expensive...

I also don't know the price of the upgrades of a Prinergy workflow, but:
- for an old Agfa Viper RIP the upgrade from 1.9x to 3 cost 10 years ago about 25,000 francs = 3800 euros (= 5000 $)
- and a simple basic upgrade of a standard Harlequin RIP costs about 2,000 euros (2670 $) + a new PC + the installation (and the training).

Adobe has released the first PrintEngine RIP in 2006 and the second in 2009, so it seems that to keep the RIP up-to-date you need an upgrade at least every 3 years...
(some people on this forum would probably be able to give you the prices...)

What they don't realize is without that workstation their press will sit idle 8)
Software is expensive but without it your press will not run.

What you don't realize, is that you are completely wrong... because before we decided to buy a DTP workstation, our presses ran already since many years with page-layout and films made by subcontractors...
... and today many printers still make their presses run without any workstation, using subcontractors to image all their plates.

 

[novib]

Are all those in house prepress departments nuts!

Are all those in house prepress departments nuts!

What you don't realize, is that you are completely wrong... because before we decided to buy a DTP workstation, our presses ran already since many years with page-layout and films made by subcontractors...
... and today many printers still make their presses run without any workstation, using subcontractors to image all their plates.

Well I agree with some of your remarks. Prepress software can be expensive. Certainly for those smaller players... BUT your last remark is way off. Consider the money you would spend on hiring those subcontractors? This can be a lot higher then building up / maintaining your own prepress department. Or if not a lot of printers who have prepress in house are not good in mathematics. IMHO software really pays off. See how many FTE's are working in a prepress department and compare it with the film days! If you complain about CS software being to expensive, ask you customer to deliver good PDF's and invest in a decent PDF editor and or workflow!

In order to maximize the capacity of your printing presses a well functioning prepress department is a must!

just my 2 cents

 

[pcmodem]

The cost I had for the computer was for replacing it every 3 years but I put 5 years in the copy. I did not put any information in about RIP, platesetter, imposition software because that part is so variable based on what system you purchase. You can get cheap RIP's or expensive ones and I didn't feel it was fair to put that information in. As far as having to shell out money to upgrade a RIP. Some vendors include the upgrades for their RIP if you are on a support contract with them. Sometimes it pays for itself sometimes not. It would just depend on if you contact support with problems and how often the upgrades come out.

My feeling is that every production department needs to be making money, even if it is a small amount. If you are not making money in said department, then you have several options. 1. Change your pricing to reflect your actual cost, 2. make a change in the department so the actual cost matches the cost you charge your customer ie: improve productivity 3. Outsource the work.

If it is costing you too much to perform a certain function, then perhaps you should outsource that work until you are able to bring the work back in house and make money on it. It is against business logic to spend money and not recoup your costs. When fuel costs go up so do our shipping costs, the printing business is not any different.

 

[claude72]

BUT your last remark is way off. Consider the money you would spend on hiring those subcontractors? This can be a lot higher then building up / maintaining your own prepress department. Or if not a lot of printers who have prepress in house are not good in mathematics.

You're right: CAN be... it depends of lot of datas: the size of the print-shop, the number of plates output each month, the source of the files, etc.
... plus an extra parameter, because what is true in your country is not obligatorily true in another country, due to important variations in the costs of softwares and hardwares, and due to the more important varaitions in the cost of salaries...

... I already showed you that I pay the softs about 80% more than you, and I guess (but I'm not sure, perhaps we should compare our salaries???) that the cost of the pre-press-operators job is lower in France than in USA, so the investments are 80% higher for me, with a lower gain of productivity because the cost of the human work is lower...

I made a quick estimation this afternoon: I output about 80 plates permonth... to be simple,
• 50% (= 40 plates), from internal files or from customers's native files in low software versions that I could have handle with my old G4 with InDesign CS1 and XPress 6,
• 50 % from PDF or from customers's native file in CS3/XPress 7 or higher: for this jobs, either I need the 5500-euros-upgrade, or I have to subcontract...

The plate made by my usual subcontractor costs about 10 euros more than the plate I output myself (including the extra job I have to do on the files): so if I hadn't make the upgrade and I had give all these PDF and CS3/XP7 files to a subcontractor, for 40 plates it would have cost me 400 euros more per month, 4800 euros per year, and 5600 euros for 14 monthes...
... so upgrading my workstation to CS3/XPress7 cost me 5500 euros and allowed me to save 5600 euros before it became obsolete... OK, the situation is not as worst as I guessed: I have paid my CS3, and I even have earned 100 euros!

If you complain about CS software being to expensive, ask you customer to deliver good PDF's...

Are you kidding? all my customers are already SURE that they give me good PDF! even when they make a piece of shit from Word with PDF creator!!!

It's very simple to understand: they have something-that-makes-PDF in their computer, they click on "PDF" and a PDF is created... and they are sure that it is enough to make a PDF to the printer: for many people, a PDF is a PDF and that's all...

... and they cannot understand (they even cannot imagine) that there could be good PDF and bad PDF...
1° their "PDF maker", whatever it is, outputs a PDF, so it works,
2° to make a PDF, they just have to click on "Print", choose "PDF", click "OK" (or click on "Export PDF" and "OK"): these 3 (or 2) actions are so simple, so basic, so easy to do, that they cannot imagine that they could have made a mistake!!!

... so if I say them that the PDF is not good, in most cases they receive it almost like an insult, because they are sure that they exactly know how to make a PDF, and that they have made a perfect PDF, and if I have an issue with their PDF it cannot be their fault, then it can only be my fault, because I'm an idiot and I don't know how to handle PDF.

(and I already had a customer that "explained" me how to print a PDF: he explained me that I just have to put the PDF on the Photoshop icon on the desktop, set the resolution to "300" in the window that appears, click "OK", and simply print the image from Photoshop...)

... and invest in a decent PDF editor...

Euhhhh... PitStop is not a decent PDF editor???

and or workflow!

Back to the previous post: I need between 10 and 20 years to pay the ideal workflow!


******

I did not put any information in about RIP, platesetter, imposition software because that part is so variable based on what system you purchase. You can get cheap RIP's or expensive ones and I didn't feel it was fair to put that information in.

That's the problem... but now to work with PDF one needs at least a RIP able to work in ROOM mode (Rasterize Once, Output Multiple), in order to be able to first rasterize the PDF, and then use the rasters to:
- output JPEG to send to the customer for control,
- output eventually color proofing,
- impose,
- and safely image films or plates.

Here again, prices are not the same in France and in USA: a basic Xitron Harlequin RIP for my imagesetter costs about 6500 euros in France, the (almost same) RTI Harlequin RIP bought in the USA costs 4500 $ (=3400 euros) + a PC!

Some vendors include the upgrades for their RIP if you are on a support contract with them.

AFAIK, most include only the updates: only the technical updates, for example from 7.0 to 7.1...
... but not the upgrades from 7.x to 8!

My feeling is that every production department needs to be making money, even if it is a small amount.

Yes, it's a way to manage the job...

... another way is to look at the globality of the costs, and see pre-press as a "necessary pain": it's a pain because it costs money, but it is necessary because it allows the presses to run and make money... and one have to find the solution that costs the less money than possible: do it quickly with up-to-date expensive softs/hards, do it with cheap softs and some by-hand-job... or subcontract!!!