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CTP Developer Neutralizer Options

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Patcbx

Member
When we set up our CTP plate processor, we installed a Procam PropH-T/P Neutralizer. There were some issues, and we are currently going the route of barrels and waste disposal. We would like to go back to the neutralizer solution; the PropH-T/P unit would need to be upgraded, or completely replaced, so I am looking for all options, and especially options that people are happy with. I have found the Metafix R4 units, and the CPAC DNS-100 system. Does anyone have experiences--good or bad--with any of these units that you would like to share?

Pat Peterson
Supervisor, Graphics & Prepress, Color-Box Richmond
 
Neutralizer Options

Neutralizer Options

Hi Pat,

Sorry we cannot comment on the Procam unit as our Technical Applications Group (TAG) has never tested this. The CPAC and Metafix units were looked at some years ago. Both systems performed well.

I would love to hear about other users experiences as well about what they are using.

Thanks, Frank
 
I have been using Metafix e-Control micro-PH more than 5 years and it works fine no problem . I tried 2 more system and this is the best easy to maintain and the support is good too and not to mention cheaper in the long run.
 
I would call Pro-cam 972-422-1212 to see what the cost would be to get it up and running. With Metafix you need a sevice contrat and must use there neutralizer at $110. per 5 gallons plus shipping
 
Metafix neutralizer cost $110 per 5 gallons will last you about 3 months what i'll do is order 4 -5 gallon jugs to save on shipping and it will last you a year.
 
Neutralizer

Neutralizer

As a distributor of many neutralizer systems the most service friendly is the CPAC. Easy to use and easy to maintain. All developer creates sludge or debris. Although all the units will neutralize and work well, the variable is the conditions. Some units have many bells and whistles that you pay for and small hoses or no way to remove any debris or sludge out of holding tank which is not practical. Any interests please email or call and I can break down all the units for you for service, costs and consumables so you can get a true picture of how a system should preform. Mark 800.287.5416 [email protected]
 
neutralizer

neutralizer

Power or liquid?: FREE QUOTE

I can provide neutralizer at the same strength as all other acid neutralizers on the market for a fraction of the cost you are currently paying/jug (5gal or 20L if you are in Canada) or if you wish to save even more; instead of shipping water, simply mix your own! We are doing this for more and more clients to cut down on consumables across North America. I will supply the product in powder form so that you can place the powder in a clean 20L (or 5gal) jug, fill with water, mix/shake and in minutes you have neutralizer to utilize. We use this neutralizer with ALL neutralizer systems since we service them all. A great way to cut consumable costs and lower spending for 2010. MSDS always supplied as well.

800.287.5416

Mark R. Wiedener ext 24
 
Question to printers: how much positive impact to your business would there be if the plate chemistry was pH-neutral to begin with? Would this get you excited, or is it just a minor benefit? Can you quantify the benefit from your perspective?
 
Neutral Developer

Neutral Developer

As an environmental technologist working in the printing industry I have to say that anything neutral is much safer to deal with on a health and safety point but that is pretty much where I draw the line. For waste management you have to be very careful. pH is talked about in industry like that is the only thing that is tested for in the sewers. Well this is not the case. I have clients that we haul waste away from so no developer goes down the drain at all ..... or is this true. Even when disposal is used this does not always mean that you are in compliance. Carry over of developer into wash water as one example has made one of my clients over in a few parameters. TSS (total suspended solids) and B.O.D. (biological oxygen demand) are some examples. We had to create a carbon filtration tank to take care of these issues before discharge could be in true compliance from this particular processor. MSDS are also misleading if the reader is not educated or the supplier does not explain the item. MSDS is for NEW CHEMISTRY and for most we don't mix new chemistry with wash water and dump it down the drain. For instance when even a fairly neutral pH of developer is used with CtP you can see that the waste created looks nothing like the new chemistry. Emulsion has entered into the equation and now that MSDS is useless in determining the composition of this newly created waste. Becareful since liability is the end user which is the printer that is discharging. This is true for all USED chemicals. There is a reason why we don't reuse, used chemicals over and over again, because it is not the same as it was when you bought it. It would be nice if MSDS were available on the typical spent chemistry so users know how to deal with the waste and exactly how harmful it is.
 
Mark Wiedener said:
<snip>anything neutral is much safer to deal with on a health and safety point but that is pretty much where I draw the line. For waste management you have to be very careful. pH is talked about in industry like that is the only thing that is tested for in the sewers. Well this is not the case. I have clients that we haul waste away from so no developer goes down the drain at all ..... or is this true. Even when disposal is used this does not always mean that you are in compliance. Carry over of developer into wash water as one example has made one of my clients over in a few parameters. TSS (total suspended solids) and B.O.D. (biological oxygen demand) are some examples. We had to create a carbon filtration tank to take care of these issues before discharge could be in true compliance from this particular processor. MSDS are also misleading if the reader is not educated or the supplier does not explain the item. MSDS is for NEW CHEMISTRY and for most we don't mix new chemistry with wash water and dump it down the drain. </snip>
Click to expand...

Thanks Mark - I do agree with many of the points you make above. The problem with supplying an MSDS for used chemistry is that the ratios/concentrations and so forth would vary considerably by site and application. How useful would an MSDS for the spent chemicals be if it were from a "typical" installation used under our Standard Operating Procedures?

Certainly the best approach is reduce/eliminate as much chemistry as you can first, then make sure that what's left is as mild/neutral/low-impact as possible. We're certainly going that direction, and in a hurry. :)

Kevin.
 
Any written findings (analytical data) is better than nothing - there is no mention of that there is a different chemical composition created in any manual I have read. As an environmental technologist I need to have a benchmark to start with to see if we are below or above a certain standard. This would be a very important chart to add to manual (and inexpensive to sample for). Sewer guidelines and regulations are created by "typical" standards/situations and that is how discharge limits (and fines) are set.

And this is always why there is a fine print on everything. For example, neutralizer systems all say in the litterature that these products only regulate pH and please consult your areas local discharge limits before proceeding. Best procedure is to know what effluent is typical at your location from your typical or "composite" sample and then you know. This is exactly how the governments and municipalities test and regulate. These are the standards or goals we should be shooting for so there is due dilligance in place for our clients. And in the last few decades you can really see a positive change with things becoming lower impact, agreed, but still little data produced. But with every change there is an adverse affect. This is nature. But knowing the adverse affect and dealing with it is important to know. Education is what it is all about and passing this knowledge down to the end user. Digital printing seems chemical free, well liquid chemical anyway, not air bourne. More concerns about indoor air quality and ozone become items to look at. Interesting to say the least but more testing and education all around. The reason I have a job is because of adverse affects and the need for proper education by industry on products and the waste that is generated from the process.
 
Thanks Mark - I've already been having some discussions internally, and I'll see how far I can take those. Unfortunately there is no industry standard for these types of things (yet), but I'm not afraid of trying to set one by example.

The environment isn't something to play for pure marketing benefit, although that's certainly a valuable side-effect of truly innovative products. That's the confluence point we're aiming for - where environmental impact reduction and customer value meet.

Kodak Trillian SP Thermal Plates - Kodak Graphic Communications Group

Kevin.
 
Neutralizing agent

Neutralizing agent

PDI Supply is the seller for the Neutraling agent for the DNS100.
Patcbx said:
When we set up our CTP plate processor, we installed a Procam PropH-T/P Neutralizer. There were some issues, and we are currently going the route of barrels and waste disposal. We would like to go back to the neutralizer solution; the PropH-T/P unit would need to be upgraded, or completely replaced, so I am looking for all options, and especially options that people are happy with. I have found the Metafix R4 units, and the CPAC DNS-100 system. Does anyone have experiences--good or bad--with any of these units that you would like to share?

Pat Peterson
Supervisor, Graphics & Prepress, Color-Box Richmond
Click to expand...
 
The simplest way for me to explain this is- older systems were treated and etched and then when processed the non printing surface was all ready to accept water. Today the plate is etched as it is processed so the developers have a higher PH. At least this is what the manufacturer's have explained. The effluent should be treated prior to disposal as to not introduce the high PH (hazardous material) into the environment.
 
Our MetaFix has been churning along for almost 9 years. Maintenance is part of a contract with Hart Industries in CT, and is very reliable. Only thing is we have had to replace the pH probe a number of times. Also, this may be a positive but I'm not sure, the machine's warning beeps are extremely loud. We turn off the water supply to our processor and neutralizer when not in use (hookups are rubber hoses, not plumbing pipes), and the MetaFix sends out loud signals to "Check Water Line." The maintenance techs always comment on how clean our unit is, citing the very good quality of Boston's municipal water supply.
 
ohgoditsart said:
The simplest way for me to explain this is- older systems were treated and etched and then when processed the non printing surface was all ready to accept water. Today the plate is etched as it is processed so the developers have a higher PH. At least this is what the manufacturer's have explained. The effluent should be treated prior to disposal as to not introduce the high PH (hazardous material) into the environment.
Click to expand...

When you say etched does that mean adjusting or treating the plate grain? Etched usually implies altering a surfaces properties along with roughing it up a little.
 
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