Curious about Costs

[Deleted member 16349]

I am trying to get an idea of costs related to printing cartons. I only need a very general idea and I am hoping someone can help.

If one has a 56" sheetfed press and is printing cartons, what would be the approximate cost of a sheet of paper? Max sheet size is about 1400mm by 1000mm.

What would be the cost per hour charged for say a six colour 56 " sheetfed press?

What would be a reasonable average run length for printing cartons?

Thanks for any comments that you can provide.

Erik

 

[abc228]

I ran a folding cartons on a roland 800 55 in. 6-color up until 2008 worked 20 years & plant closed.Printing on metal now,not much different than paper.As for your question i know it depends on the type of work& stock .Does the box need to be glued,windowed or both/recycled stock averaged around 10-15 cent a sheet ,sbs & poly coated stocks are higher.A average price on small jobs were 1-2 dollars a sheet.Large runs maby 70 cent to a buck a sheet....just curious why you ask???????
A small job being from 2-8000 sheets or so..seemed as if they got at least 2500-3000 in sale of job to even get it to press.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

I ran a folding cartons on a roland 800 55 in. 6-color up until 2008 worked 20 years & plant closed.Printing on metal now,not much different than paper.As for your question i know it depends on the type of work& stock .Does the box need to be glued,windowed or both/recycled stock averaged around 10-15 cent a sheet ,sbs & poly coated stocks are higher.A average price on small jobs were 1-2 dollars a sheet.Large runs maby 70 cent to a buck a sheet....just curious why you ask???????
A small job being from 2-8000 sheets or so..seemed as if they got at least 2500-3000 in sale of job to even get it to press.

I am trying to get an idea of what the internal costs are for production. This is mainly for the printing step in making cartons for food packaging or similar products.

Basically I am trying to get some idea of how much cost can be saved if certain things are done to improve the printing process. Shorten make ready time and reduce setup paper.

You are right, it really depends on what stock is used and what the press is. Of course a newer press would have a higher hourly rate. Everyone has a different cost structure but hopefully I can get some general idea.

Your numbers for cost of stock help. With such a low cost per sheet maybe lost press time is more costly?

I hope some others will also comments so I can get a better average idea of the costs.

Thanks.

 

[abc228]

Most cost saving methods are rather obvious scheduling of work,same colors for multiple make readies ,having materials staged & ready to go etc. One way to save paper is to build books to use for make ready,save the waste from a commonly used sheet size & build books with maby 9 waste sheets & 1 good sheet,have feeder load onto feeder pile & pull exactly 10 sheets top 9 are waste only using 1 good sheet until ready to run.Pretty commonly used method as we also do this where i currently work.Even more critical seeing how metal about $2.00 a sheet or so .I know rock-tenn co. has huge plant in canada is this where you work???

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Most cost saving methods are rather obvious scheduling of work,same colors for multiple make readies ,having materials staged & ready to go etc. One way to save paper is to build books to use for make ready,save the waste from a commonly used sheet size & build books with maby 9 waste sheets & 1 good sheet,have feeder load onto feeder pile & pull exactly 10 sheets top 9 are waste only using 1 good sheet until ready to run.Pretty commonly used method as we also do this where i currently work.Even more critical seeing how metal about $2.00 a sheet or so .I know rock-tenn co. has huge plant in canada is this where you work???

Thanks for the suggestions on reducing waste but what I am looking for are costs. If one saves a sheet of paper, how much does that sheet cost. If one saves a minute of machine time, how much does that one minute cost.

I am really looking for those kinds of numbers. From your previous reference of 10 to 15 cents per sheet or more if the quality is better, I am using an estimate of a cost of 20 cents per sheet.

Machine time cost for a 6 colour 56" press, I am thinking of maybe $300 per hour.

So I am hoping someone can say, yes those are good estimates to use or say no, they should be higher or lower.

I don't work for Rock-Tenn.

 

[CD102]

$300 an hour is probably close enough. The last time I heard the numbers bandied about in our pressroom was about 10 years ago and $200 was the number quoted. Figure for inflation and a larger press and $300 is probably in the ballpark.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

$300 an hour is probably close enough. The last time I heard the numbers bandied about in our pressroom was about 10 years ago and $200 was the number quoted. Figure for inflation and a larger press and $300 is probably in the ballpark.

Thanks for the confirmation. I was originally thinking of a higher number and the estimated saving became absurdly large. Now I know if I use $300/hr I am using something that is reasonable.

 

[printerpete]

Well, the cost of a press / hour would obviously depend on manning, and how much the machine actually costs as in how much you paying on the finance (if its payed for that figure would be nothing) and how much power its using.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Well, the cost of a press / hour would obviously depend on manning, and how much the machine actually costs as in how much you paying on the finance (if its payed for that figure would be nothing) and how much power its using.

You are right, there are a lot of variables in determining actual costs.

If one uses a Standard Cost model for manufacturing a product, the total unit cost of the product is usually made up of three different costs.

One is Direct Labour, which of course is related to the manning of the press you mention.

The second is Materials and that usually means the paper, ink and fountain solutions etc. and is affected by waste.

Thirdly there is the Burden, which is related to the financing of the press but also includes the cost of the space taken up by the press in the building, the electrical consumption, non direct labour, maintenance costs and other costs that they allocate to the press.

So even if the press is totally paid for, there can be quite a lot of Burden costs attached to it. It's what the accountant do.

The Standard Cost model is not so good at showing the actual impact on the real cost improvements for some innovations but it is used so much in industry that it is a good way to discuss potential improvement efforts.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

I am trying to get an idea of costs related to printing cartons. I only need a very general idea and I am hoping someone can help.

If one has a 56" sheetfed press and is printing cartons, what would be the approximate cost of a sheet of paper? Max sheet size is about 1400mm by 1000mm.

What would be the cost per hour charged for say a six colour 56 " sheetfed press?

What would be a reasonable average run length for printing cartons?

Thanks for any comments that you can provide.

Erik

OK, so far I have an estimate of 20 cents per sheet and a Burden rate of $300 an hour for the above example.

I am guessing that about 10 make-readies would be done in a 24 hr period. Does this seem reasonable?

Thanks.

 

[CD102]

OK, so far I have an estimate of 20 cents per sheet and a Burden rate of $300 an hour for the above example.

I am guessing that about 10 make-readies would be done in a 24 hr period. Does this seem reasonable?

Thanks.

Depends on the size of the jobs, the number of color changes made between jobs, etc., etc.

Supposedly in a speed demo, KBA demonstrators were able to make-ready and run 17 different jobs requiring 500 salable sheets each in an hour. Each job was printed 4 over 4 and each job required all 8 plates changed. I don't know if they spent any time proofreading copy on those make-readies or not. I don't know if there were any large swings in ink coverages from one job to another either.

RCS invests in KBA Rapida 106 press: News from KBA

I know that in my old shop that if we were running similar items with the same rotation and the same basic ink coverages, we could do make-readies in less than 10 minutes. I'd pull the last load out of the delivery while the blankets were washing, the assistant would put the plates on as we only had semi-automatic plating and then off we would go. If it was a long run, we'd check the copy while running. If it was a small order, we'd stop and take 5 minutes to check everything over. I know there were days that during an 8 hour shift I did 7 or 8 make-readies with the average run being about 10,000 sheets.

With more automated presses and shorter runs, I'm sure that many pressman can exceed that.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Depends on the size of the jobs, the number of color changes made between jobs, etc., etc.

Supposedly in a speed demo, KBA demonstrators were able to make-ready and run 17 different jobs requiring 500 salable sheets each in an hour. Each job was printed 4 over 4 and each job required all 8 plates changed. I don't know if they spent any time proofreading copy on those make-readies or not. I don't know if there were any large swings in ink coverages from one job to another either.

RCS invests in KBA Rapida 106 press: News from KBA

I know that in my old shop that if we were running similar items with the same rotation and the same basic ink coverages, we could do make-readies in less than 10 minutes. I'd pull the last load out of the delivery while the blankets were washing, the assistant would put the plates on as we only had semi-automatic plating and then off we would go. If it was a long run, we'd check the copy while running. If it was a small order, we'd stop and take 5 minutes to check everything over. I know there were days that during an 8 hour shift I did 7 or 8 make-readies with the average run being about 10,000 sheets.

With more automated presses and shorter runs, I'm sure that many pressman can exceed that.

Thanks, that was interesting info. To be on the conservative side I will stick with 10 make-readies for 24hrs.

A 10 minute make-ready is great and it kind of supports my view that if one has the inking preset properly, the colour comes up very quickly. Since you said that the 10 minute make-ready would be possible if that next job had basically the same ink coverage, the colour coming up would be like stopping and then restarting the same job.

By the way, if the next job was drastically different in ink coverage etc., how long would it take and how many sheets? Knowing what the other extreme end would be is also of interest.

 

[CD102]

Keep in mind that we made folding cartons, so we had a bit more latitude as to what was considered salable or acceptable color. For the most part we ran the same basic items and we would record the ink profiles for later use. We did not have a working plate scanner. We did not get our profiles directly from pre-press or the graphic center. Personally I'm very interested in how accurate the newer presses are when it comes to presetting the fountains.

If the job was something that we had not run before, I put the plates on the console and used a light pen to make profiles in memory. It wasn't as bad as the old days when you'd have to put the plate on the unit and engage the ductor roller to the fountain roller, then adjust the keys manually and advance the fountain roller to see the level of ink you were transferring. And the other advantage is that I created the profiles before the prior job was run off.

With all that being said, it was usually 30 minutes to an hour with 45 minutes being the average. It all depended on whether units had to be colorwashed, if all hands on the crew were available, etc. Most make-readies were under 100 sheets. Again, we're talking salable sheets. We could be 20 points off on a color but that would be considered salable. We would probably tag it, but it would most likely ship. That was the nature of our business. The tolerances are probably a lot tighter for cosmetics or pharmaceuticals.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Keep in mind that we made folding cartons, so we had a bit more latitude as to what was considered salable or acceptable color. For the most part we ran the same basic items and we would record the ink profiles for later use. We did not have a working plate scanner. We did not get our profiles directly from pre-press or the graphic center. Personally I'm very interested in how accurate the newer presses are when it comes to presetting the fountains.

If the job was something that we had not run before, I put the plates on the console and used a light pen to make profiles in memory. It wasn't as bad as the old days when you'd have to put the plate on the unit and engage the ductor roller to the fountain roller, then adjust the keys manually and advance the fountain roller to see the level of ink you were transferring. And the other advantage is that I created the profiles before the prior job was run off.

With all that being said, it was usually 30 minutes to an hour with 45 minutes being the average. It all depended on whether units had to be colorwashed, if all hands on the crew were available, etc. Most make-readies were under 100 sheets. Again, we're talking salable sheets. We could be 20 points off on a color but that would be considered salable. We would probably tag it, but it would most likely ship. That was the nature of our business. The tolerances are probably a lot tighter for cosmetics or pharmaceuticals.

Thanks again for your comments. They are helpful.

Quality level seems to be the big factor. I am guessing that if one can get to within +/- 0.05 pts in the first 50 sheets, that would be good.

 

[Cornishpastythighs]

+/- 0.05 density pts to target in the first 50 sheets would be very good. We also produce cartons and our customers are very critical of colour, also print a lot of health care products and those customers are very educated in the world of colour and variation.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

+/- 0.05 density pts to target in the first 50 sheets would be very good. We also produce cartons and our customers are very critical of colour, also print a lot of health care products and those customers are very educated in the world of colour and variation.

Thanks, that helps.

 

[spigot]

Why not call your paper supplier and get a range of quotes on for example, 5 different materials, and 5 different sizes, and 5 different quantities. Then you will have your very own pricing matrix.
Secondly, as you mentioned your accountant, why not gather the financial data required to figure out your own hourly rate? In the early stages it isnt a worry what others are charging until you know your own costs. Then fish around at what the others are doing for competitive comparison. Just because some other printer is charging 300/hr on a "big press" doesnt mean that your costs, outgoings, production issues/bottlenecks etc etc are the same. Therefore, Dont use that as gospel, it could be wrong for you. Figure out what your able to do first!
This also applies to m/r time, changeover, etc. Due diligence first.
PS Printing for health/pharmaceutical companies is a pain in the ass. Every since they got their own spectrodensos.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Why not call your paper supplier and get a range of quotes on for example, 5 different materials, and 5 different sizes, and 5 different quantities. Then you will have your very own pricing matrix.
Secondly, as you mentioned your accountant, why not gather the financial data required to figure out your own hourly rate? In the early stages it isnt a worry what others are charging until you know your own costs. Then fish around at what the others are doing for competitive comparison. Just because some other printer is charging 300/hr on a "big press" doesnt mean that your costs, outgoings, production issues/bottlenecks etc etc are the same. Therefore, Dont use that as gospel, it could be wrong for you. Figure out what your able to do first!
This also applies to m/r time, changeover, etc. Due diligence first.
PS Printing for health/pharmaceutical companies is a pain in the ass. Every since they got their own spectrodensos.

Thanks for the comments.

They are good for someone who is a printer but I am not a printer. I am just trying to get a rough idea of costs so I can present suggested performance improvements to a printer. I don't know their exact costs but some relative cost model would be helpful for me. They may have higher or lower costs but just having some rough costs is good enough for a starting point.

A friend of mine is a successful sales agent in the petroleum industry and he told me that I should have some kind of cost structure to present. He said that it did not matter if it was perfect. He has found that his customers can relate his estimated costs to their own situation. He says that it is important for his customers to see some kind of potential cost benefit.

As an engineer, I hate to present numbers that are not accurate and therefore I have hesitated to claim cost savings that are not based on actual data. My friend says that that is not a good sales approach. He says that if you present a calculated savings and show where you have made your assumptions, customers have a better chance of seeing how that fits with their operation than if you gave them no cost calculations at all.

So with the info I have obtained from the forum, I have an idea of where the cost savings are. It was actually good for me to go through this process since it tends to show that the ROI is very short and therefore even if the data is not totally correct, there is still a benefit.

 

[Cornishpastythighs]

Dont forget to add extra costs for a UV printer. If you save 100 sheets of makeready for a conventional guy the same 100 sheets for a UV guy will will be even greater savings.