Current State of Digital Vs. DI...are you nuts?

[tulsadir]

1st off, i wanted to get the Digital Printing angle on this matter -

considering current pricing and capabilities - if you had to buy today -
would you lean toward digital press or DI ?

What are the leading DI machines...which are still in production?

i am close to buying xerox 8000ap , 770, or KM7000.

(variable printing is not a big need for me)

my average job is 5000 full color, both side postcards on 100 cover.

((regarding the "are you nuts?" in title...that was just attention getter))

 

[arossetti]

What size post card, if its a 4x6 that's only a 600 sheet run which screams digital to me. I don't have a DI nor ever operated one but from what I hear it is a lot of up keep at a high price per sheet. Most people given the choice between digital and DI I think would choose digital.

 

[Disappointed]

What size post card, if its a 4x6 that's only a 600 sheet run which screams digital to me. I don't have a DI nor ever operated one but from what I hear it is a lot of up keep at a high price per sheet. Most people given the choice between digital and DI I think would choose digital.

Not so. It's dependent on run length, DI is not good below about 500 sheet runs but between 500 and say 20k it will cream most other presses of comparable size.

 

[KevinC@EFI]

The market niche for DI has been sqeezed from both ends considerably over the last few years. Digital cost per page, quality, and substrate range has improved significantly, while the efficiency of short-run-offset has continued to improve as well. The gap between those for DI is arguably zero today (assuming modern equipment). I was/am heavily involved in the DI material that Creo developed for the Heidelberg/KBA/Ryobi DI presses, and it's clear that market is on its last legs.

As for the comment that 600 sheets "screams digital", I'd agree... but also say that offset can do that very cost-effectively too. A modern press can have a job up to full color in 10 sheets. I have customers overseas doing internet printing, and claiming they're profitable on offset for anything over 80 sheets.

So - DI was a great compromise when digital didn't cut it for quality and offset wasn't as efficient as it is today, but it's not something I'd personally recommend today as a new investment.

My $0.02 only.
Kevin.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

A modern press can have a job up to full color in 10 sheets. .

I wonder about comments like this. Reality check is required.

 

[Disappointed]

The market niche for DI has been sqeezed from both ends considerably over the last few years. Digital cost per page, quality, and substrate range has improved significantly, while the efficiency of short-run-offset has continued to improve as well. The gap between those for DI is arguably zero today (assuming modern equipment). I was/am heavily involved in the DI material that Creo developed for the Heidelberg/KBA/Ryobi DI presses, and it's clear that market is on its last legs.

As for the comment that 600 sheets "screams digital", I'd agree... but also say that offset can do that very cost-effectively too. A modern press can have a job up to full color in 10 sheets. I have customers overseas doing internet printing, and claiming they're profitable on offset for anything over 80 sheets.

So - DI was a great compromise when digital didn't cut it for quality and offset wasn't as efficient as it is today, but it's not something I'd personally recommend today as a new investment.

My $0.02 only.
Kevin.

Interesting, but knowing I have no plates to change, no registration issues, on-colour in 15 sheets, no stock limitations, no damping to set, no scumming risk and a 12 minute job change, I think I'll be sticking with my DI for some time yet

 

[Disappointed]

I wonder about comments like this. Reality check is required.

Not quite but our fully tuned DI will run ISO standard colour jobs all day with a makeready of between 15 and 25 sheets, not quite 10 but damn impressive.

 

[KevinC@EFI]

I wonder about comments like this. Reality check is required.

Heidelberg - Speedmaster SM 52

10 sheets to full color is the basis of their marketing message. Certainly it depends on your needs and expectations, but I've seen it personally in many shops. Reality, checked.

Kevin.

 

[KevinC@EFI]

Interesting, but knowing I have no plates to change, no registration issues, on-colour in 15 sheets, no stock limitations, no damping to set, no scumming risk and a 12 minute job change, I think I'll be sticking with my DI for some time yet

If you have a DI in operation, I'm by no means saying to throw it out the door and replace it... I'm just saying it's not where I'd be spending my money for new investment.

12 minute job change... you can beat this with a standard offset press, and of course there's zero changeover for a digital press. No registration issues? You've never had a plate slip on your DI press? Lucky you.

Kevin.

 

[Disappointed]

If you have a DI in operation, I'm by no means saying to throw it out the door and replace it... I'm just saying it's not where I'd be spending my money for new investment.

12 minute job change... you can beat this with a standard offset press, and of course there's zero changeover for a digital press. No registration issues? You've never had a plate slip on your DI press? Lucky you.

Kevin.

Course not, fully understood, I would have to look very carefully at new investment now, when we got into DI, there was not much competition.

What machine? Very interesting, but you also have to factor in a CTP and operator with conventional. Never ad a plate slip yet and we burn a lot of plates

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Not quite but our fully tuned DI will run ISO standard colour jobs all day with a makeready of between 15 and 25 sheets, not quite 10 but damn impressive.

Yes.

But Kevin was talking about modern offset lithographic presses and not waterless. Even the Anicolor press, which is specifically designed to aim at low start up waste takes about 20 sheets.

Also the phrase "getting up to colour" can mean different things to different people. There should be a standard test for such claims, which have target densities and tolerances etc. As you know, printing text is a lot different than printing a complicated and demanding process image.

Also it matters what one prints. If one prints the same type of image, job after job, it is easier to get to colour but if the image is very different on each job, that would take more sheets to get things settled down. This is related to how the ink is stored on the roller in the roller train from job to job.

We need some standard tests methods to back up such loose comments.

 

[Disappointed]

Fair enough, I would class 'up to colour' as a saleable sheet, our demands are quite high but I can still get totally on colour within a 100 or so sheets, the difference between 'on colour' and 'up to colour' is usually only definable with measuring equipment.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Heidelberg - Speedmaster SM 52

10 sheets to full color is the basis of their marketing message. Certainly it depends on your needs and expectations, but I've seen it personally in many shops. Reality, checked.

Kevin.

Kevin, your reference press IS the Anicolor press. This is not a modern conventional offset press. It is not in wide spread use yet. It is also not a conventional Speedmaster SM 52 press, which I think still outsells the Anicolor version. Yes it will come up to colour in a very short number of sheets but it also costs more than the conventional 52 and probably will only run CMYK inks and not many special colours.

It is good for what it does but it also has limitations, which will mean that it does not become the press of the future.

Reality not quite checked. I do agree that it does point in a direction of the potential of offset performance.

 

[KevinC@EFI]

Kevin, your reference press IS the Anicolor press. This is not a modern conventional offset press. It is not in wide spread use yet. It is also not a conventional Speedmaster SM 52 press, which I think still outsells the Anicolor version. Yes it will come up to colour in a very short number of sheets but it also costs more than the conventional 52 and probably will only run CMYK inks and not many special colours.

It is good for what it does but it also has limitations, which will mean that it does not become the press of the future.

Reality not quite checked. I do agree that it does point in a direction of the potential of offset performance.

Keep in context that we're comparing against DI here too Erik... so we're also typically talking CMYK only, and not "the press of the future". Certainly I picked a leading example of extremely quick makeready to illustrate the efficiency direction and potential for "traditional" offset, but why would I pick anything less?

I do fully agree with you that the Speedmaster 52 Anicolor is not going to be the "press of the future"... but mostly because I believe any B3-format offset press would be challenged to take this title. This is where digital is starting to thrive, while offset efficiencies are really peaking in the larger format presses, even for short runs (despite the Anicolor benefits here).

Kevin.

 

[arossetti]

Takes us 0 sheets. 13 minutes.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Keep in context that we're comparing against DI here too Erik... so we're also typically talking CMYK only, and not "the press of the future". Certainly I picked a leading example of extremely quick makeready to illustrate the efficiency direction and potential for "traditional" offset, but why would I pick anything less?

I do fully agree with you that the Speedmaster 52 Anicolor is not going to be the "press of the future"... but mostly because I believe any B3-format offset press would be challenged to take this title. This is where digital is starting to thrive, while offset efficiencies are really peaking in the larger format presses, even for short runs (despite the Anicolor benefits here).

Kevin.

I guess the DI could run spot colours. Probably doesn't but could.

So one could say that almost all modern offset presses can not get to colour in 10 sheets except Anicolor and also the KBA Karat, Genius, Rapida 74G. That would qualify the existing situation.

Maybe what is important is not the exact performance of a technology but whether or not the company that supplies them will be in business in the near future.

 

[Disappointed]

We have run spot colours on our DI, no problem there

 

[Deleted member 16349]

We have run spot colours on our DI, no problem there

Thanks for the comment. It shows that your DI is more versatile than the Anicolor press.

 

[sonic]

What machine? Very interesting, but you also have to factor in a CTP and operator with conventional. Never ad a plate slip yet and we burn a lot of plates

I make my entire press payment with the savings from the plate costs of the DI to a CTP system. Sure you have extra expense, labor, chemicals, but the other all savings is certainly significant.

I was a DI owner (2002 QMDI Pro up to 40MM impressions before selling it), and I'm not trashing it. It's a great "starter" press to dip your toes in the offset world. There are plenty second market and equipment out there, but it's obviously not "push button" production like a digital.

Each piece offers a unique proposition for him, easy of use and new opportunities in VDP with digital, but I think a lower total cost through the DI for his longer run postcards, but signicantly higher learning curve. Don't think for a moment that you're just going to get a DI and start slinging sheets with no offset experience. It's still an offset press no matter which way the plates get on the press.

If he gets 100M order of 8.5x5.5, he certainly can't run that on the digi, but would be achievable with the DI.

 

[sonic]

So - DI was a great compromise when digital didn't cut it for quality and offset wasn't as efficient as it is today, but it's not something I'd personally recommend today as a new investment.

My $0.02 only.
Kevin.

I believe it depends what his end game is. If it's a way to control his static offset postcard work in house without a major investment it's probably ok, but not cost effective. If he wants to control his own destiny in producing his work and cost doesn't factor into the equation then sure, the DI is a great option. What's the alternative if he needs to purchase offset equipment? A SM52 with a platemaker? If he HAS to be in offset(which I think he does for the static postcard work) then DI is the only reasonable stepping stone. You're talking $30-$60K investment vs a $150K-$250K investment to get into a traditional used offset press that is halfway decent, SM52, Lithrone 420 etc, (Not duplicators like 4402HA or wahtever the Ryobi product is)

If it's looking to save money compared to brokering the work, he's probably not going to save too much especially with how much excess capacity is in the market place. There are tons of printers looking to turn cylinders and sell at or near cost. It's a GREAT time to be a print broker.

The digital will help with on demand, emergency work, and create new opportunities with VDP and addressing on press vs the offline addresser, but it isn't going to help with his main static work (IMHO).

My .02 cents as well..


Bri.