Digital Copier/Press Facts v Fiction

[derricks]

I've been reading a lot here about a number of units in the high end copier lower end digital press as my company is looking to replace our Ricoh 3260 (horrifying experience btw).

We've had a number of sales teams come out from Canon, Xerox, Konica, Toshiba. After all the information myself and the other co-manager have digested we have a better picture of what things are good and bad, but of course each salesperson talks up their product.

We also have to sell that copier to the owner who can be very unrelenting on price issues.

As such, I was wondering if anyone here can give me some feedback on the following machines/prices I have available to me so I can make the best informed decision/sell that copier to the owner as the best option.

About us: We are a small-midsized graphic shop. We use the machine for graphics on cardstocks (as thick as possible would be nice....at least up to 110 lb cover 120 would be ideal). We make around 35000 black and white prints in a month, and 9000 color per month. We use the machine for scanning/emailing, doc server, simple stapling and collating. Our biggest issues with the Ricoh that we are hoping to avoid are quality and consistency. Speed isn't a big stickler for us. Our quality now is average at best, and the consistency and tech support is atrocious.

The machines we have sitting in front of us and pricing are as follows:
Konica Minolta 65hc $53,160.00 (C28o included)
Konica Minolta C5501 $41,495.00
Konica Minolta C652 $24,495.00
Xerox Color 550 $29,355.00
w/ fiery
Toshiba 6550CT $12,995.00

Each of the salespeople for these companies has, of course, assured us that these machines are perfect for our environment, but I'm hoping to get an unbiased (as much as possible) opinion on the differences between the machines and the companies from you guys. We were also questioning why the price for them varies quite a bit, especially with the Toshiba.

Any information you could offer up would be a great help.

 

[MagicBox]

If I were making the call it would by between the 550 and the 65hc. Toshiba is going to die after a yr, the C652 is an office machine, and 5501 is ancient in the market with consistency issues.

They'll all let you do trials. Pick one of the KM's and the Xerox and let them run side by side for a month. Then pick the one that actually works best for your needs

 

[tppsg]

Quality of service is even more important than the hardware. The best hardware is useless without effective service. If you are in the asia pacific region, check out the docucolour 1450. It will fit your requirements perfectly.

 

[Alith7]

with the volume, I would Highly recommend looking a little higher at the Konica C6501 with a Fiery. you DON'T need all the fancy add-ons, and the Large-Capacity Tray is useless! Don't let them fool you on that boat anchor. Avoid the C6500, it has an issue with the laser which they fixed in the C6501. Though they will also try to tell you otherwise.

I print 12pt constantly on my C6500 & C6501, and frequently abuse the hell out of them.

There are a few other aspects that you need to look at VERY carefully also. First, how the Monthly service contract is written in regards to base included clicks and per click costs. you will generally pay a flat monthly rate that will include XX number of color and XX number of B&W clicks. contract for that to be about half to 2/3 of your average volume. You will pay for those clicks regardless of if you use them, and they generally don't roll over into the next month, so you want to make sure you're covered in case of a "dry" month. Once that is set, then look at what you are being charged per click for color and B&W, and also, MAKE SURE that you aren't being charged double clicks for 11x17 (that's one that they like to sneak in, and MAKE SURE that you CONFIRM the machine is only counting single clicks once it is installed by checking the click count on the first few jobs. another "oops" they try to slip past you)

Second, check how your consumables are covered in the contract. Is there a limit to how much you can use a month? (there shouldn't be, but they'll try) Are ALL the consumables covered, including staples? (another thing they try to slip in and staples can be expensive)

Third, check on what the buy out requirements are at the end of the lease and make sure that you are comfortable with the terms. Sometimes a $1 buyout is the ideal, sometimes not, but make sure that you are comfortable with the terms. If not, tell them so. they want to sell you their copier in the worst way.

Lastly, try to get a price for the same machine from a different vendor if the option is available to you. If you don't know what deals there are and what not, only getting one price from one vendor could be iffy. some of them may try to pad the deal with a few grand just because they know you aren't looking anywhere else to compare the price. As a general rule, Copier salesmen tend to be on the same level as car salesmen. if they promise you anything GET IT IN WRITING! and file it with the contract papers. Salesmen will verbally promise you anything to make the sale, but may be more hesitant to inflate the truth of the machine if you insist on getting it in writing. I've heard "that's what the salesmen say to sell the machine, that's not the reality" from MANY of my techs until I learned better.

Good luck!

 

[derricks]

Am I correct in thinking that the 6501 is basically the same as the 5501 just a bit faster? I thought I remember someone saying to us that the first number is just how many sheets per minute the unit will run?


Thanks for the information though guys, it's really helpful, so keep it coming.

Any of those machines someone feels are the best, worst?

 

[Alith7]

Am I correct in thinking that the 6501 is basically the same as the 5501 just a bit faster? I thought I remember someone saying to us that the first number is just how many sheets per minute the unit will run?


Thanks for the information though guys, it's really helpful, so keep it coming.

Any of those machines someone feels are the best, worst?

I can check. I don't have experience with the 5501, we had a 5500 that just printed for crap that we inherited in a buy-out of a different shop.

 

[Chet]

Like Alith7 says, get the Konica Minolta 6500 or 5500 (depending on your speed needs) with only 1 Large capacity tray and no finishing options. (bare bones model) And make sure you get fiery and not a Creo.

 

[Shaja]

(Disclosure: I am the purchasing manager for an independently owned Konica Minolta dealer. I can speak to Konica product information only; I am not a sales rep and cannot compare models between manufacturers.)

C5501 and C6501 question - basically, yes. The accessories are mostly the same. The C6501 has more finishing options and an optional Creo print controller along with the two Fiery options. The C5501's maximum paper capacity is smaller and only uses the optional Fiery print controllers.

Going by your list of requirements, the Konica C65hc may be overkill. It's a bit of a niche machine, as it uses a special "high chroma" toner to handle an expanded color palette and sRGB color gamuts. I don't see anything in your requirements that indicates you have a need for that. ?

Don't get me wrong, it's a good machine (saw it at Graph Expo and got some print samples - the metallics pop like it's actual metal on the paper.) But, if you don't need the expanded color handling and your owner is price conscious, the C5501 or a used C6501 may be a better fit to your requirements.

 

[Alith7]

Like Alith7 says, get the Konica Minolta 6500 or 5500 (depending on your speed needs) with only 1 Large capacity tray and no finishing options. (bare bones model) And make sure you get fiery and not a Creo.

just to Clarify what I said... NOT the 6500 or the 5500...they have horrible color consistency. the 6501 or 5501 would be the only ones or newer though I'm not familiar with the newer ones.
Also NOT the LCT. it almost never feeds, and skews the paper so bad that registration is terrible no matter what you do!
finally, their simple finisher the small one that does basic saddle stitching and corner stapling is a good plan, though I wouldn't add the hole punch unless you use it frequently, it really slows the running times. The only other thing I would had to the finisher is the Post inserter if you do a lot of booklets or such, otherwise it's not much help.

Though I DO agree with the Fiery, our machines with Creo's tend to be more problems than the expense is worth.

 

[pacart]

I second the opinion to get the 6501, we have one with the bare minimum and we got the LCT, unfortunately what Alith7 is saying is true, the unit does skew and feeds like crap.

As for your list there, i would be willing to bet you could get a 6501 for 20K less than the price you have listed there for the 65hc with the upgraded fiery. Im not saying what we paid for ours, but experience says the prices you show are a bit high.

 

[derricks]

Like Alith7 says, get the Konica Minolta 6500 or 5500 (depending on your speed needs) with only 1 Large capacity tray and no finishing options. (bare bones model) And make sure you get fiery and not a Creo.

Why not get the Creo instead of a Fiery? The 65hc they want to give us a break on has a Creo built into it, which I guess is part of the reason they are selling it lower. Is there an issue with that?

Also I'm interested in 'with only 1 large capacity tray and no finishing?'
Is the large capacity tray the tray that feeds into the bypass? I asked the sales guy about it today (thinking Alith7 was recommending NOT to get that) but he was insistant that registration would be hurt if we didn't have it as stock would shift more as it came through the printer?
As far as finishing, are you referring to the saddle-stitch options beyond stapling/collating?

 

[Alith7]

Why not get the Creo instead of a Fiery? The 65hc they want to give us a break on has a Creo built into it, which I guess is part of the reason they are selling it lower. Is there an issue with that?

Also I'm interested in 'with only 1 large capacity tray and no finishing?'
Is the large capacity tray the tray that feeds into the bypass? I asked the sales guy about it today (thinking Alith7 was recommending NOT to get that) but he was insistant that registration would be hurt if we didn't have it as stock would shift more as it came through the printer?
As far as finishing, are you referring to the saddle-stitch options beyond stapling/collating?

We haven't had too much luck with the Creo's so far, it depends on what you are looking to do. If you're looking to get into Variable data/Imaging it handles that better, but otherwise, for a standard production environment, it's a huge expense that doesn't get that much benefit over the Fiery, but take a close look at the specs, I'm not familiar with the latest versions. Basically, don't let the salesman sell you a bunch of bells and whistles you don't need.

and the LCT HURTS registration. The mechanicals on how the LCT works is faulty and can't handle any amount of weight (that being more than maybe 50 sheets of 20#). the way it lifts the tray is sloppy and litterally wiggles around.

there are 6 different levels of finisher, the first two don't saddle stitch, the upper 3 get a bit overboard (and huge) unless you do a LOT of booklets.
See here:
bizhub PRO C6501/C6501P Production Color Printers from Konica Minolta
the best bet for a general production is the FS-607, it will side and corner staple, saddle stitch and sort.
but again, it comes down to what you need.

Be a bit leery of anything that they are trying to push on you as a "good deal". I'm not saying it's not, but sometimes there are reasons. Like maybe the machine isn't selling well, or it was a demo model that didn't work and now they're stuck with it. Also, as was posted early the 65hc may be a lot of extra cost for features that you don't need.

 

[maynardsayswhat]

I'd like to echo some sentiments above. The KM6501 sounds like a solid pick and if I were in your position that's the machine I'd trial. I've also had major issues with our LCT (on a KM6500). Nowadays I only use it for non-vital-registration light stocks (no-bleed flyers etc).

Two other things to consider:

Are you buying a machine for what you need now, or for what you'll need in 2 years? Take a moment to consider what you may need mid-contract.

Cardstocks (9pt - 12pt) usually run in the bypass tray which has a limited load amount. If you normally run 1m impressions for a typical run, for example, you'll be reloading the bypass a lot! Obviously not an issue if your usual job only requires 50 impressions.

Good luck!

 

[Shaja]

The 65hc they want to give us a break on has a Creo built into it,...

What you wrote about the Creo being "built in" is curious. The bizhub C65hc does not have a print controller come standard. The two accessory choices are an IC-305 external Fiery print controller or a IC-304+ external Creo Plus Print Controller.

Finishing options on the C6501 and C65hc are complex, because there are multiple ways for the accessories to be combined together. Konica's configuration guide has six pages of diagrams showing the possible combinations. You don't have to get a stapling finisher. For example, you could get a large capacity stacker by itself if that's all you need. Other choices include a saddle stitcher unit, folding unit, perfect binder and GBC punch. If you don't want any finishing, you could get an output tray.

Paper - on both the C65hc and the C6501 you can get a PF-602 paper feed unit or a LU-202 large capacity tray. Both accessories have optional dehumidifier/heater units. The bypass is not accessible when the PF-602 is installed. The C5501 has only the LU-202 large capacity tray as an additional paper choice (with optional dehumidifier/heater). I cannot speak to the service issues raised in other posts; I have not heard of anything like that happening to our clients.

 

[derricks]

So today we had our meeting with the Xerox people. They are trying to push the Xerox Color550 on us. I've heard from some people around the net to be wary of Xerox, and that this model is basically a suped up desktop printer. The sales guy did echo that when he talked about it optimizing for a 20# paper. They want to put a basic firey, a basic finisher, and an LCT on it.

There are also some drum pieces that we would be putting in/taking out to make sure it's doing the best job for paper v cardstock. Has anyone heard of that?

Anyone here have experience with this model? Good, Bad?

Unfortunately I'm leaning more to the Konica, but the boss likes the Xerox price. Could anyone compare and contrast the Xerox 550, the Konica 65hc, and the Konica 5501? To my knowledge the 5501 and the 550 are fairly similar????

 

[X33]

this model is basically a suped up desktop printer.

I guess any model can be considered like that, as well as a water down 20 feet digital press. You should stay to some facts.

There are also some drum pieces that we would be putting in/taking out to make sure it's doing the best job for paper v cardstock. Has anyone heard of that?

this is great for production environments. The ability to change the drums and fuser module in minutes compared to waiting hours for a service tech to come and do the job. If you value the uptime of the equipment, this may be a good thing. Also, did you know that the Xerox toner is dual-component? Meaning, there's no additional need for extra developer powder to be replaced by service techs. Every time you put a new toner cartridge, you are putting fresh developer in the machine, which translates into consistent image quality.

 

[Alith7]

this is great for production environments. The ability to change the drums and fuser module in minutes compared to waiting hours for a service tech to come and do the job. If you value the uptime of the equipment, this may be a good thing. Also, did you know that the Xerox toner is dual-component? Meaning, there's no additional need for extra developer powder to be replaced by service techs. Every time you put a new toner cartridge, you are putting fresh developer in the machine, which translates into consistent image quality.

ok, both those features could be very helpful! The owner just always chokes on what Xerox wants to charge for click rates.

 

[hondarr9]

If I were making the call it would by between the 550 and the 65hc. Toshiba is going to die after a yr, the C652 is an office machine, and 5501 is ancient in the market with consistency issues.

They'll all let you do trials. Pick one of the KM's and the Xerox and let them run side by side for a month. Then pick the one that actually works best for your needs

Yes the 5501 may be ancient in the market but we have 2 xerox machines and a KM 5501 and the 5501 is the most consistent and the least down of all our machines. Maybe we just got a good one.

 

[salesserviceguy]

The Toshiba e6550c on a shorter lease would probably work for you and get you the low cost you are looking for. We have several in the field with 1M clicks in a year and all are working fine providing your Service provier stays on top of it PM Schedule. The copier can handle up to 300 GSM through the bypass. The 8 Bit RIP produces very good colour quality.

 

[Robbie101]

We run the hell out of our 5501. We prolly run 15000-20000 sheets of #130 cover out of ours. Not to mention #100 cover/text and so on.....