Rugger7
Member
Can you explain a 'click rate' and also if just my 'click rate' would be 6c then why would digital be the way to go? Are your saying a used indigo would not have the click rate?
Digital vs. Offset Printing for my new business
- Thread starter Rugger7
- Start date
Can you explain a 'click rate' and also if just my 'click rate' would be 6c then why would digital be the way to go? Are your saying a used indigo would not have the click rate?
someone else can be more specific but on click rates its the amount you pay a company per impression. Some of the older used presses may not have a click rate at all, I seem to remember an old indigo we had not having a click charge but not for sure that is not my speciality.
PricelineNegotiator
Well-known member
And with that I think we should all stop responding to this thread. He doesn't care what we have to say, he just wants us to do the math for him. You should talk with an equipment supplier to figure out what you can get your costs to be, as this is getting rather ridiculous.
I just wanted to say if you can make a living at selling EDDM you are one heck of a salesman, I congratulate you on that and trying to grow your business.
You mention expanding into presort mailings, if you are looking at doing this correctly you might want to team up with a local mailshop, plenty of them in your area as the rules and regulations (read the DMM for a good nights sleep) are ever increasing with Full Service and now it looks like we will be getting Invoiced by the USPS for any errors in a mailing (theirs or ours).
If you can hand off the liability of printing & mailing I would recommend it. Let the guys that do it day in and day out handle it and you collect the check and your cut.
Btw, eddm bmeu is an option: https://www.usps.com/business/pdf/eddm-business-mail-entry-unit-fact-sheet.pdf
You mention expanding into presort mailings, if you are looking at doing this correctly you might want to team up with a local mailshop, plenty of them in your area as the rules and regulations (read the DMM for a good nights sleep) are ever increasing with Full Service and now it looks like we will be getting Invoiced by the USPS for any errors in a mailing (theirs or ours).
If you can hand off the liability of printing & mailing I would recommend it. Let the guys that do it day in and day out handle it and you collect the check and your cut.
Btw, eddm bmeu is an option: https://www.usps.com/business/pdf/eddm-business-mail-entry-unit-fact-sheet.pdf
MailGuru
Well-known member
"EDDM-BMEU" is "slang" for ECRWSS (Enhanced Carrier Route - Walk Sequence Saturation) with a simplified address format. It's not really EDDM. Your Permit Indicia is different, your rates are different, there's no need to drop-ship down to the DDU (unless you are taking the Destination Entry Discount), you must obtain a Presort Standard PI permit, and, it goes on a different postal form. EDDM goes on a PS-3587, ECRWSS goes on a PS-3602R (if it's standard mail regular, or PS-3602N (if it's a non-profit permit). Also, because it is standard mail (instead of EDDM), your mail can be letter size, as well as flat size (just different rates and mail preparation). There is no "official" classification called "EDDM-BMEU" (you will not find that term in the Domestic Mail Manual).
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Rugger7
Member
So here's a real random curve ball.. and maybe this would not be up the alley of professional printers (and I'm very sorry if it angers some of you that I'm even asking!!! SORRY! But thanks to anyone willing to answer the random question even if it is silly and stupid) but is there a laser printer out there where you can refill the toner and can handle 7 pt or greater 8.5" x 11" and push out 20,000 in just a day or two without breaking the machine?
I think that would be an interesting experiment for my purposes at this moment, just wanting to mail bigger cards for my existing business for less than I pay to mail 6 x 12's. So 10k a month (but front and back I guess we call it 20k duty?) hopefully the tray would take at least 500 if not 1000 and I would only have to refill the toner maybe every 1000 - 2000 pages.. so 10-20x for the total run... say under $2500 .. is something like that out there or does it not exist or not exist for that kind of price? I wouldn't really want to be splashing $5-10k unless I was certain it was more of an experiement. At least if I splashed $2k and it didn't work like I wanted I'd have a nice printer to use for many years.
I see some really cheapo Brother printers that would work if they could take thicker paper, hold more in the tray, and do a heavier volume of printing so I'm thinking if you were to up the price point to $1500 - 2500 maybe such a thing exists? But then I bet they have their tricky microchips that keep you from refilling toner yourself..
I have had a laser which I refilled before it was super cheap as far as toner was concerned a $50 bottle of toner would print seemingly infinite pages.. but it was a low end Cannon machine had to throw it away years ago. I still refill two Canon Pixma inkjets I have now .. its a PITB because I have to refill about every 50 pages but that laser you could print several hundred per fill it was excellent for B&W.
I think that would be an interesting experiment for my purposes at this moment, just wanting to mail bigger cards for my existing business for less than I pay to mail 6 x 12's. So 10k a month (but front and back I guess we call it 20k duty?) hopefully the tray would take at least 500 if not 1000 and I would only have to refill the toner maybe every 1000 - 2000 pages.. so 10-20x for the total run... say under $2500 .. is something like that out there or does it not exist or not exist for that kind of price? I wouldn't really want to be splashing $5-10k unless I was certain it was more of an experiement. At least if I splashed $2k and it didn't work like I wanted I'd have a nice printer to use for many years.
I see some really cheapo Brother printers that would work if they could take thicker paper, hold more in the tray, and do a heavier volume of printing so I'm thinking if you were to up the price point to $1500 - 2500 maybe such a thing exists? But then I bet they have their tricky microchips that keep you from refilling toner yourself..
I have had a laser which I refilled before it was super cheap as far as toner was concerned a $50 bottle of toner would print seemingly infinite pages.. but it was a low end Cannon machine had to throw it away years ago. I still refill two Canon Pixma inkjets I have now .. its a PITB because I have to refill about every 50 pages but that laser you could print several hundred per fill it was excellent for B&W.
There is equipment out there than can do this, but not in your price range. Stick with outsourcing as mentioned previously.
If you want to compare numbers realistically you will need to get some quotes on machines from Xerox,Ricoh,Canon,KM etc.. if you are looking to bring it in-house.
If you are talking about full bleed cards you will have quite an investment with a cutter added to the mix.
AP90
Well-known member
What you are requiring is totally possible, and I'm sure many of us on here do what you do daily. You asked about filling an order of 20k 8.5x11 mailings in a day or 2. Many different machines will handle this job. The higher end xerox, KM, HP, ect machines will do this without even breaking a sweat. Low end machines will labor on the job a fit will take a lot of time to finish.
Offset presses will handle the job without blinking an eye. But there is way more involved in running an offset press that is going to produce a quality product, and unless you get major training, you'll be hiring a pressman to run this type of press. I believe a lot of pressmen have starting salaries of 40k+.
I am a small digital in house printer that also takes on additional outside clients, mainly brokers like yourself. We have one of the biggest and fastest digital printers out there, a Xerox 1000i. It runs like a champ. With its duty cycle and speed, I could run a 20k 8.5x11 job every business day of the month and not run it to death. Press time for that job with be +/-7.5 hours. Now to burst your bubble. My monthly lease is more than your budget for a printer. In your initial post you said you wanted to be at 2-3 million a month. Your looking at 4 of my printers at minimum or stepping up to the iGen, which is even more costly.
im not trying to sound like I'm discouraging you from doing this, because I'm not. I say go for it if you have a sound business plan. But it better be a good one. And you better be able to invest major capital into this. You can't go compete in a nascar race with a Camaro. Sure, you'll finish the race, but you'll be the only one and left way behind. Feel free to PM me and ask questions. I love talking about this stuff.
dabob
Well-known member
Ditto for what AP90 says . . . with this caveat, non of the machines he mentioned have "refillable" toner cartridges . . . thats what the click charge is all about - as you asked before the "click" charge covers consumables, toner, drums or belts, fusers, parts that wear out and maintenance . . . if you purchased an after market machine and purchased the toner "ala carte" you might save money on "consumables" but you would be short on the service end - not something I would recommend - we have a Xerox 770, a fairly robust machine and the service guys are here on the average of once maybe twice a week adjusting, tweeking, or replacing parts that have broken or just worn out. If you are thinking about servicing the machine yourself . . . Thats not a job I would want and I have a degree in Electronics Technology that back in the day would have made me prepared for a job doing just that but with no training I wouldn't even consider it.
If your considering offset . . . well you would need a high end platesetter to make the plates costs somewhere from 45,000 and up . . . for 1/2 sheet presses ( approx 20x29 inch sheet size) and a pre press person 25-30 bucks an hour
and a 1/2 sheet press such as this on ebay which has a UV coater inline 225,000 plus moving and setting it up . . . and then a pressman - 25-30 bucks an hour if you lucky http://tinyurl.com/j3e2jt5
a properly sized cutter 10- 25 thousand
so if your looking at that size of run regularly your initial outlay for equipment - 300,000 and then add in the real estate either rental or purchase . . but make sure it has 3 phase power and at least 150 amp service
It's my humble opinion that you should get your feet wet by brokering your printing for at lease the first year - just to learn the language and see if your sales projections come true . . then you could make a more informed decision than today.
If your considering offset . . . well you would need a high end platesetter to make the plates costs somewhere from 45,000 and up . . . for 1/2 sheet presses ( approx 20x29 inch sheet size) and a pre press person 25-30 bucks an hour
and a 1/2 sheet press such as this on ebay which has a UV coater inline 225,000 plus moving and setting it up . . . and then a pressman - 25-30 bucks an hour if you lucky http://tinyurl.com/j3e2jt5
a properly sized cutter 10- 25 thousand
so if your looking at that size of run regularly your initial outlay for equipment - 300,000 and then add in the real estate either rental or purchase . . but make sure it has 3 phase power and at least 150 amp service
It's my humble opinion that you should get your feet wet by brokering your printing for at lease the first year - just to learn the language and see if your sales projections come true . . then you could make a more informed decision than today.
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dabob
Well-known member
I confess. Sometimes I go on You Tube and watch car or motorcycle crashes. I say go for it. Just make sure you post day to day solutions you learned from your venture. I'm sure most of us are eager to see what happens.
Don't ferget the boat fails . . . they are also interesting and sometimes there are good looking girls in bikinis . . .
msaeger
Well-known member
You pay so much a page to the service provider of your machine. Normally this includes the service and the toner. I see on what people call a digital press 4 -5 cents a page for color. A page means a single side of a sheet up to 13x19 so if your click rate was 4 cents and you want a full bleed finished 2 sided piece 8.5x11 you would print 2 on a 12x18 (or custom size if you are cutting from a larger size) sheet and it would cost you 8 cents.
If you were to print these on a offset press you still need some way to get the addresses on them.
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BertThePrinter
Member
You can get 5,000 6.5 x 11 EDDM cards printed 4/4 on 14 Pt C2S, with Gloss UV for around $275.00 from a Trade only printer. That is 5.5 cents per card. I think this puts the question of Digital versus offset to bed for this topic. The answer is Job out to a trade printer. That is the ONLY way this kind of venture pencils out. IMHO
jwheeler
Well-known member
Rugger7....there has been alot of good points made here, but you specifically asked about the equipment and not our opinions on whether or not you should start a business or outsource. Outsourcing is good for starters, but you don't have control over quality or turn-around time. Also, some trade printers sell direct and aren't always so honest, and might go get your customer directly.
I've worked in commercial print shops for roughly 16 years that had both digital and offset. I'm now in the business of selling digital printers, but I will try to offer an unbiased opinion since I'm most likely not going to be selling directly to you anyway unless you happen to be in the Inland Empire...
If you go the offset route you will need the press, a cutter, a UV coater, and an inkjet machine if you need addressing. If the press isn't a DI press that images the plates directly on the press, you will also need a platemaker. The offset route is best for very long runs, but you do have to consider the cost of plates, press blankets, washup chemicals, inks, rags, etc. Also, you'll need to have a skilled pressman who can demand $25-30/hr. With offset, you also have to worry about a rag service, a service for disposing of your inks/chemicals, and making sure you are adhering to environmental standards. Offset is also a multi-step process since you have to address separately (whereas digital can print and address at the same time). You also have to consider drying time before you can cut unless you get a 5th station to apply a varnish. You also have alot more paper waste for setup on an offset press to get the colors in register and up to the proper density...anywhere from 100-500 sheets per run, especially since most runs will be two sided. That also requires two passes through the press, whereas digital comes out printed both sides and addressed.
If you go the digital route, you would want a production level machine like the ones previously mentioned from the big players like Konica Minolta, Xerox, and Canon. With this route, you have a lower cost for short run than offset since you don't have to pay for all of the previously mentioned things. However, at a certain point, the clicks will outweigh the offset press costs for higher volumes. A good number to use is 4¢-5¢ per click. A click would be what you're charged for every sheet that goes through the printer, and it's charged per side. So if it's two sided, you would pay two clicks (one for each side). Most presses are running 13x19 sheets max, so you can fit four 6x9 postcards up on a page, which would be 2.5¢ per piece if you had 5¢ clicks. If you commit to a high volume or do some negotiating, most vendors will lower your click rate. The click covers all of the service on the machine, along with all consumables like toner, waste bottles, etc. You should consider a workflow system with automated imposition and hot folder capabilities. Fiery has become a good standard for the industry. With a digital press, you don't really need a highly paid craftsman like you do for offset. Just someone who pays attention to detail and is computer savvy. While an offset press usually lasts for decades, a digital press usually lasts for 5-7 years depending on usage. So these devices are typically leased so they can be traded in for a new one at the end. So the lease is another fixed cost to consider with digital. The foot print of a digital machine is typically smaller than a 4 color offset press.
For a UV coater, make sure you verify that the coatings work with the toner of the digital press you decide to go with. If not, the UV coating will bead off and not provide a smooth finish. I sell Konica Minolta's and we partner with TEC Lighting who make a coating that works great with our systems.
For cutting, you can look at a guillotine cutter or a slitter/cutter. For what you're doing, I think guillotine would be the fastest, especially if you get a programmable unit and make sure it's hydraulic instead of electrical. Slitter/cutters are great for shorter runs since you can just load the paper and walk away while the unit feeds each sheet and cuts/slits one sheet at a time. Duplo makes great products for either option. Most of the major digital vendors also sell the Duplo's.
I've worked in commercial print shops for roughly 16 years that had both digital and offset. I'm now in the business of selling digital printers, but I will try to offer an unbiased opinion since I'm most likely not going to be selling directly to you anyway unless you happen to be in the Inland Empire...
If you go the offset route you will need the press, a cutter, a UV coater, and an inkjet machine if you need addressing. If the press isn't a DI press that images the plates directly on the press, you will also need a platemaker. The offset route is best for very long runs, but you do have to consider the cost of plates, press blankets, washup chemicals, inks, rags, etc. Also, you'll need to have a skilled pressman who can demand $25-30/hr. With offset, you also have to worry about a rag service, a service for disposing of your inks/chemicals, and making sure you are adhering to environmental standards. Offset is also a multi-step process since you have to address separately (whereas digital can print and address at the same time). You also have to consider drying time before you can cut unless you get a 5th station to apply a varnish. You also have alot more paper waste for setup on an offset press to get the colors in register and up to the proper density...anywhere from 100-500 sheets per run, especially since most runs will be two sided. That also requires two passes through the press, whereas digital comes out printed both sides and addressed.
If you go the digital route, you would want a production level machine like the ones previously mentioned from the big players like Konica Minolta, Xerox, and Canon. With this route, you have a lower cost for short run than offset since you don't have to pay for all of the previously mentioned things. However, at a certain point, the clicks will outweigh the offset press costs for higher volumes. A good number to use is 4¢-5¢ per click. A click would be what you're charged for every sheet that goes through the printer, and it's charged per side. So if it's two sided, you would pay two clicks (one for each side). Most presses are running 13x19 sheets max, so you can fit four 6x9 postcards up on a page, which would be 2.5¢ per piece if you had 5¢ clicks. If you commit to a high volume or do some negotiating, most vendors will lower your click rate. The click covers all of the service on the machine, along with all consumables like toner, waste bottles, etc. You should consider a workflow system with automated imposition and hot folder capabilities. Fiery has become a good standard for the industry. With a digital press, you don't really need a highly paid craftsman like you do for offset. Just someone who pays attention to detail and is computer savvy. While an offset press usually lasts for decades, a digital press usually lasts for 5-7 years depending on usage. So these devices are typically leased so they can be traded in for a new one at the end. So the lease is another fixed cost to consider with digital. The foot print of a digital machine is typically smaller than a 4 color offset press.
For a UV coater, make sure you verify that the coatings work with the toner of the digital press you decide to go with. If not, the UV coating will bead off and not provide a smooth finish. I sell Konica Minolta's and we partner with TEC Lighting who make a coating that works great with our systems.
For cutting, you can look at a guillotine cutter or a slitter/cutter. For what you're doing, I think guillotine would be the fastest, especially if you get a programmable unit and make sure it's hydraulic instead of electrical. Slitter/cutters are great for shorter runs since you can just load the paper and walk away while the unit feeds each sheet and cuts/slits one sheet at a time. Duplo makes great products for either option. Most of the major digital vendors also sell the Duplo's.
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