Do you charge clients for preepress re-design?

[Pitersen]

Do you guys charge a fee for prepress design?
If I can't simply send a file to print, artwork is not designed for print.
I look at this this way, it takes sometimes longer to prep the artwork for print then design it from scratch. Specially Corel files, I had a client who had few colour pallets out in the Corel Draw: Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Uniform. And he was picking the colour he liked from each palette.
300 layers later, artwork was beautiful but virtually unprintable.
You have to charge the fee for time wasted, what else you do?

 

[WiseGuy]

I'm a vendor, so I can only speak from what I've seen and heard... but most people don't charge, but I have seen many printers who deal with less professional clients post charges for file prep and correction.

Question... don't you convert the customers files to PDF? If you do, then you could use something like PitStop to quickly fix the problems you describe in your question. Also, A product like our Connect ALL product may help... with Connect, you would give your client a way to create the PDFs according to your specs and then upload it to your server... everything would have been corrected before it even hit your server and they would not have even known.

I'm eager to see what others have to say about your question on charging.

I hope this helps!
Michael Reiher
Enfocus Product manager

 

[Alith7]

aside from the horrible product plug....he is right.

BUT, we have about 20mins of prepress time built into our base setup charges. we deal with a LOT of inexperience or wrong experienced designers/people so preflighting and correcting is just par for the course. Yes, we could go with the garbage in/garbage out concept, or charge every time files aren't a "drop and go", but we would loose clients over that. we have have a number of very good clients that stick with us BECAUSE we put so much into preflighting and fixing before we go press, and that it's just part of what we do. So, within reason, no, we don't charge. If the files are just horrible, and it's a chronic problem from them, and we have tried to educate them so they can create their files better, then yes, we charge a small fee.

 

[Chasfinch]

we preflight almost every job pdf or native. We put the time down on what needs to be fixed if anything and time it needs to be taken. Saves a lot of headaches and confusion. And we charge the customer if they cannot provide print ready files either native or pdf.

Of corse that does change depending on client and circumstances......

 

[dabob]

We do build in a minimum charge like Alith . .. but then it gets interesting . . . . a week ago sales brings me a "calendar" that is supposedly "Print ready PDFs" . . turns out they are the photos she wants on the calendars - 3 different calendars, I tell estimating that it would take 3 to 3.5 hours to get the job done - estimating blows up at me saying we can't charge that much we won't get the job - I say you asked how long - not what she would pay - estimating chops the time in half to try and get the job - still don't get the job -

I guess the real question is, should pre-press just be considered a loss leader to get the work in the door and try and make up for it on the back end - (being pre-press myself, I don't have that opinion)

Whats your 2 cents?????

 

[Alith7]

We do build in a minimum charge like Alith . .. but then it gets interesting . . . . a week ago sales brings me a "calendar" that is supposedly "Print ready PDFs" . . turns out they are the photos she wants on the calendars - 3 different calendars, I tell estimating that it would take 3 to 3.5 hours to get the job done - estimating blows up at me saying we can't charge that much we won't get the job - I say you asked how long - not what she would pay - estimating chops the time in half to try and get the job - still don't get the job -

I guess the real question is, should pre-press just be considered a loss leader to get the work in the door and try and make up for it on the back end - (being pre-press myself, I don't have that opinion)

Whats your 2 cents?????

As Chasfinch said, it depends on the client/circumstances. I'm in prepress, dabble as a CSR on occasion, but my boss is always complaining that we never charge enough.

 

[gordo]

Interestingly, in the steam-powered days of mechanicals and paste-ups - in this case circa 1980 - I had occasion to bring an additional paste-up for an annual report that was already in prepress. As I waited at the counter for service I could see through the open door into prepress where one of the technicians was pulling off my rubylith image window overlays and tossing them into the waste bin. So, when the prepress manager came to the counter I asked what was the deal with the guy pulling off the overlays - that I had worked hours on - and trashing them. He told me that they do a much more accurate job by shooting and masking film than using the original art that I had supplied. I asked why I had never been told not to bother doing rubylith overlays. He said that they didn't because prepress enjoyed getting a chuckle out of seeing the art that designers (and mechanical men) supplied.
They didn't charge then, just as they don't charge now - but, unlike now, at least they had a good laugh.

One of the experiences that helped direct what turned out to be my career.

If you don't understand the terms I used in my post...damn your youth! :-D

best, gordo

 

[Alith7]

Interestingly, in the steam-powered days of mechanicals and paste-ups - in this case circa 1980 - I had occasion to bring an additional paste-up for an annual report that was already in prepress. As I waited at the counter for service I could see through the open door into prepress where one of the technicians was pulling off my rubylith image window overlays and tossing them into the waste bin. So, when the prepress manager came to the counter I asked what was the deal with the guy pulling off the overlays - that I had worked hours on - and trashing them. He told me that they do a much more accurate job by shooting and masking film than using the original art that I had supplied. I asked why I had never been told not to bother doing rubylith overlays. He said that they didn't because prepress enjoyed getting a chuckle out of seeing the art that designers (and mechanical men) supplied.
They didn't charge then, just as they don't charge now - but, unlike now, at least they had a good laugh.

One of the experiences that helped direct what turned out to be my career.

If you don't understand the terms I used in my post...damn your youth! :-D

best, gordo

Gordo~
I have the youth...but still understand...
we don't laugh anymore....usually we just cry... LOL
sadly bad art just makes our jobs harder in this new digital age. Although some of the new tech is kind of nice. I used to hate having to do spread layouts and impositions and hope like hell that you didn't miss a page or double one up, as it was all manual. I also used to thank the few designers that ACTUALLY knew what printer spreads were and would have that all ready for us. And curse those damn designers that liked to confuse you by having it in reader spreads, only lead with the back cover, and have no page numbers... Now, with all the fancy impo software, we actually tell customers we prefer the single page layouts as our RIP puts them all together perfectly. - minus opp error

 

[SlaveToTheMan]

If you don't understand the terms I used in my post...damn your youth! :-D

best, gordo

Au contraire mon frere, I understand every single word - and I feel old.

 

[Pitersen]

We do build in a minimum charge like Alith . .. but then it gets interesting . . . . a week ago sales brings me a "calendar" that is supposedly "Print ready PDFs" . . turns out they are the photos she wants on the calendars - 3 different calendars, I tell estimating that it would take 3 to 3.5 hours to get the job done - estimating blows up at me saying we can't charge that much we won't get the job - I say you asked how long - not what she would pay - estimating chops the time in half to try and get the job - still don't get the job -

I guess the real question is, should pre-press just be considered a loss leader to get the work in the door and try and make up for it on the back end - (being pre-press myself, I don't have that opinion)

Whats your 2 cents?????

I'm in the opinion "Why get the job to loose money or time?", your estimators should learn that if he is going to get the job he will get it regardless of the price (within reasons).
Being a very small shop I'm sort of in a good position that I price it, design it and print it. If I see that client does not want to pay, I cut my cost during first conversation and just don't spend my time talking to them.
I've learned that if I have to spend time haggling with the client I loose money twice. Once when I waste my time talking to them and second time when I agree lower price just to get the job.
Not being rude, but there is a door behind them and if they don't like the price they can walk out for free.

Last week I had a guy calling about A1 posters "What is the cheapest way to print A1 posters?"
Taking into account that he wanted 10 only, I wasted my 3 minutes with him and gave him the price which was like ground zero and he still did take it. I laughed to myself after I've put the phone down, cuz I knew looser's budget was none.
People don't understand that to print A1 posters you need a machine for several thousand quid and the to print posters A1 in large quantities you need a machine which cost more then their house.
I'm really a big supporter of all those print shops who print so cheaply that they can't cover overheads and they go bust after few months, it makes more room for me.

 

[Possumgal]

Interestingly, in the steam-powered days of mechanicals and paste-ups - in this case circa 1980 - I had occasion to bring an additional paste-up for an annual report that was already in prepress. As I waited at the counter for service I could see through the open door into prepress where one of the technicians was pulling off my rubylith image window overlays and tossing them into the waste bin. So, when the prepress manager came to the counter I asked what was the deal with the guy pulling off the overlays - that I had worked hours on - and trashing them. He told me that they do a much more accurate job by shooting and masking film than using the original art that I had supplied. I asked why I had never been told not to bother doing rubylith overlays. He said that they didn't because prepress enjoyed getting a chuckle out of seeing the art that designers (and mechanical men) supplied.
They didn't charge then, just as they don't charge now - but, unlike now, at least they had a good laugh.

One of the experiences that helped direct what turned out to be my career.

If you don't understand the terms I used in my post...damn your youth! :-D

best, gordo

Oh, I understand. I used to do everything but run the press. Remember the old Best Western 3 color logo with the crown? I used to cut amberlith overlays on the flats when stripping negs. For business cards. It's a wonder I'm not stone blind.

 

[JimBob53]

Gordo,
Awwww! Remember the 'Good Ole Days' Been there done that!

 

[Pitersen]

Gordo,
Awwww! Remember the 'Good Ole Days' Been there done that!

See we don't allow people with Zimmer frames in our shop

 

[pacart]

Interestingly, in the steam-powered days of mechanicals and paste-ups - in this case circa 1980 - I had occasion to bring an additional paste-up for an annual report that was already in prepress. As I waited at the counter for service I could see through the open door into prepress where one of the technicians was pulling off my rubylith image window overlays and tossing them into the waste bin. So, when the prepress manager came to the counter I asked what was the deal with the guy pulling off the overlays - that I had worked hours on - and trashing them. He told me that they do a much more accurate job by shooting and masking film than using the original art that I had supplied. I asked why I had never been told not to bother doing rubylith overlays. He said that they didn't because prepress enjoyed getting a chuckle out of seeing the art that designers (and mechanical men) supplied.
They didn't charge then, just as they don't charge now - but, unlike now, at least they had a good laugh.

One of the experiences that helped direct what turned out to be my career.

If you don't understand the terms I used in my post...damn your youth! :-D

best, gordo

Sorry Gordo,

My youth says,

1. I have no clue what a paste-up is
2. I have no clue what a mechanical is
3. I have no clue what a rubylith is
4. I have no clue what shooting and masking film is
5. I have no clue what a blueline is

I have no clue what that stuff is, why?

My first prepress job was in 1999 at a very progressive shop that had done away with as much manual processes as possible and switched to digital. It is funny now that I look in our shop and see so much left over items from the "steam-powered days". I don't know what half of it is. We also have some machines that scare the hell out of me, if you get too close you're likely to loose a limb, these machines are also prone to exploding (not a good day).

So anyways, my entire career has been with shops that had converted to complete digital workflows right before I arrived, so i've never had the pleasure of dealing with those things.

So now you ask, "what the hell does this guy know then?" I know all about computerized/digital prepress, that is what i was trained on, that is what i have worked on, that is where i make my living.

Oh, and to the OP, We build in time to our estimates. However, if we think that fixing the files will take more time, we call the customer and let them choose to fix on their end or pay us to fix on our end. Most choose to pay us. For really good customers, we just do it no charge.

 

[Galvatron]

I'm in the opinion "Why get the job to loose money or time?", your estimators should learn that if he is going to get the job he will get it regardless of the price (within reasons).

I'm fortunate to be working in the folding carton industry. We charge for each new project ... and get paid for it. I believe nothing is free but the argument for including prepress in the final price has merit.

I'm also caught up in all the nostalgia. I too worked in the steam driven era and what a great time that was. Spending hours in the darkroom or flipping the table and changing mechanicals and going home with burnt skin was a treat. The best was when you had an annual report with multiple crossovers and you had to compensate for creep. That was a time when you were proud of the work you did. Now, someone else does the creative work and your software traps and imposes it. Not the same sense of accomplishment!

 

[realrdp]

Like many digital printers, we charge a preflight-setup fee in our base estimate for all projects. I vary that charge depending upon the type for project, with lowest cost for flyer and a higher cost for 32pg + cover booklet, etc. Unless the files submitted are useless, we stick to the estimated cost. For the "shoppers" looking to find the lowest prepress charges, we pass them up and wish them all the best because we found that it's not worth the time and effort.....period.

 

[John W]

It may be that sales needs to give prepress away for marketing reasons. But in the end, the costs must be covered or you'll work like beavers going out of business eventually if you do not cover your expenses. My thought would be a base price built in with the proviso that if multiple changes occur or the build is horrible, that the first time, its free with a warning (call it education) and the next time it costs at some nominal rate. We have clients that do not check their work before submission and expect free changes over and over. They either learn or leave and we get to stay in business. The small shop that cannot bury the costs in an overall larger bill gets hurt and that is a shame. We find that every job we get requires tearing down and rebuilding the one up to fit dies, press colors, cad drawings, etc. If you spend the time at prepress, the shop will save everywhere else after that. But you still have to cover expenses.

 

[JimBob53]

I'm fortunate to be working in the folding carton industry. We charge for each new project ... and get paid for it. I believe nothing is free but the argument for including prepress in the final price has merit.

I'm also caught up in all the nostalgia. I too worked in the steam driven era and what a great time that was. Spending hours in the darkroom or flipping the table and changing mechanicals and going home with burnt skin was a treat. The best was when you had an annual report with multiple crossovers and you had to compensate for creep. That was a time when you were proud of the work you did. Now, someone else does the creative work and your software traps and imposes it. Not the same sense of accomplishment!

Truly, that was a time when printing was an art...I worked in a newspaper prepress. Sales people bring in a sack full of items to be featured in that week's ad. Everyone had to be drawn no internet to go to and get a clip. You could be proud when you saw your work later that afternoon.
New technology is great and you can do a world of things better and faster, but I do miss the 'art'

 

[Ed Enders]

Exact reprint with changes

Exact reprint with changes

There is no right or wrong answer. You have to weigh the factors. Depends on who the client is. One of your repeats who you have a good relation with. A client who you want to get more work from. A client who always pushes you to do more than what the quote covers. Do you include setup fee in the price. Do you have a fast efficient prepress with experience. There are so many variables to consider that there needs to be a simple standard Company wide that the client is happy with and one that your Company makes money on. Personally, I would build a setup fee for prepress in the initial estimate. Every file has some setup, even if it simply running the file through a preflight and rip. After that, any modifications the clients want and or changes requested are billable in addition to the original quote. All of the client requested changes need to be meticulously documented. When the job is done, than there should be a recap where the job is recalculated to incorporate the additional charges. If the final bill is refutted, than you have documented modifications. Depending on the relationship with the client, you can then either bill it or give them a break. I find meeting them in the middle almost always makes them happy. That is why it is critical printing Companies have a top notch prepress that knows what they are doing.

 

[onwsk8r]

For me it doesn't depend on the client. If they do $500 worth of printing per year, they can go to Kinko's. And I hope they do because I can make quite a bit more money in the reclaimed time, and they'll probably like the "immediate" service better. If they do $50,000 worth of printing per year, we've discussed print-ready artwork.

That being said, it depends on how broken the artwork is. If I can fix it in 5 mins or less (which I generally can), it's fine. If one image is low-res and they can supply a high-res version of it, I can swap it out. Solid color background on a business card with no bleed? No big deal. Probably. Photoshop can be your friend

Time is much more valuable than money, and I can't afford to give mine away for free - time or money. I had a lady tell me a while back that her jobs couldn't be printed on an AB Dick because those can't produce high enough quality for her taste. I'm sure she'd do a decent volume of printing, but I don't have time for stupid people. Somebody support me on this one - maybe she's on this forum hahaha! Had a guy that needed to come "inspect" the color on digital prints to make sure it was right (which, of course, it never will be). I told him a color match is $35 if he provides the color, otherwise $90/hr. Guess what? He pays $90/hr. For his short runs, sometimes the "color match" fee exceeds the cost of the printing! None of the customers I don't want to lose mind paying a little more; they like me because of the exceptional service.

Bottom line? Same concept as you have with bad clients - charge yourself out of business. They'll stop wasting your time one way or another: either they go somewhere else or the get print-ready artwork. Either way, you win because your time is more valuable than their money. Customers can be replaced; hours can't.