Do you give customer the pdf file?

[xcelprint]

Here is the situation...
Customer gives us jpegs, hand drawn sketches, business cards, word files, etc....
We prepare a print-ready pdf in via Indesign.
We print the job and they are happy and pay.

2 months later they come asking for the print-ready pdf.

I say it is the property of the printer just as back in the day when negs and plates were property of the printer.

What do you say?

Thanks

 

[Guest]

They do expect you to keep their art on hand for a certain amount of time, and provide them a PDF of that same artwork upon request. It's often hard to charge for this little request so I'll jot down a note in their art file of time spent and recoup it over the next couple of jobs. Of course if their asking for an X1-a chances are another printer has put them up to asking for it. And back in the day, most printers disclosed that the film and plates (materials) belong to the customer and state this on the invoice at time of sale so they do not have to pay sales tax on said materials as it shows as resale by stating the fact. If your doing a good job for your client and they feel they can get a better deal across the street, let them. If you were really taking good care of them they will come back after realizing the other printer isn't so hot so don't burn a bridge. Best!

 

[petermif]

This is always a tricky situation What we do is make it clear at the quotation stage that any images etc supplied by the client will remain their property BUT artwork generated in house for subsequent printing remain OUR property. Our quotations always state whether artwork is to be supplied or not and if not then we will keep it on our computers but it remains our property as work product. If the client would like print ready files (on completion of the job or subsequently) then there will be a charge for these files. We also keep a note in the artwork file of the time involved and what resources we were supplied with (e.g. CD's or images off a pen-drive or download likes ....etc).
This normally tends to bring up the artwork ownership discussion at the beginning of the job and we try to be as clear as possible. Sometimes we are asked to produce the files for other purposes such as sign-writing, advertising etc. in which case we happily supply logos and colours but not complete artwork files. For proof reading or visual purposes we send secured pdf's in which we embed a watermark. We also attach a standard disclaimer about colours on screen versus the printed copy, positioning of text etc. and encourage our client to print out a copy at the ACTUAL size. This sometimes helps, although we've had clients turn up with their printed copy of a business card printed full size on an A4 sheet!!!

 

[xcelprint]

OK... good points to consider. I think each situation is unique. This situation involves a decision maker that wants to take the job to a printer that she has a relationship with. We have indeed serviced this client with excellent quality and service on this annual job for 20 years. I just don't see supplying the files we built to a new printer to profit from.

 

[dabob]

You appear to be between a rock and a hard place, one one hand, if you don't give them the files they will most likely never be back and you will have burned that bridge. On the other hand if you do give them the files and the other printer screws up they would be likely to be back to a know source.

We generally give them files that they cannot edit or reuse for any other purpose, but as we all know - there are ways around that also . . . .

Good Luck

 

[Craig]

My policy is if we charged them for the artwork, they own it and can have it. That does not indicate they will receive print ready PDF's though. We will supply native files (no supporting fonts) and they can figure it out. If they want print ready PDF's then charge them.

 

[MidwestPrinting]

We also believe if they paid us to do there artwork and printing then its theres. We have always given the customer anything that we billed for. Back in the day when we did film we even gave them negs if they requested them. We learned it was just a good policy in the long run and to not burn a bridge even if they were going to try another printer. We have survived 31 years by keeping the customer happy.

 

[Possumgal]

My thought is that if they are paying for a job to be printed, any files you have to prepare to get to that point are the printer's, as in work product. The customer is paying for the printed job only. If they request a file of a logo, for instance, to send off to somebody for banners or something else we don't do, we always send the file, usually to the other vendor.

 

[mojoprime]

i've wondered if we could get away with providing a flat, high-resolution tiff or even a PDF with all the fonts outlined and meshes/gradients etc. expanded. Think about all of the things we've had to do to reverse-engineer files so we could print for customers. what would stop us from trying to reverse engineer a file? that's the type of file we'd need to provide to the customer. seems sort of mean, i know, but it does protect us and the work we've done. and we are giving them the final artwork.

 

[davarino]

Here's the legal problem:

Did both you and the customer have a "meeting of the minds" about what was being purchased?

Did you specifically state what was not included in the purchase?

I'm gonna guess the answer is "no" to both questions.

Years ago, printers printed a list of "trade customs" on the backs of their invoice and (sometimes) estimate forms.

That practice was abandoned about thirty years ago because courts said it was restraint of trade and pretty much unenforceable. (After all, if ABZ Printers wants to give away negatives, why should they be restrained from doing so by "trade custom"? And, "what's with all this tiny type on the back of an invoice when I wasn't advised when I placed the order?")

Unfortunately, most printers did not bother to come up with a replacement way to tell what the transaction involved. The printer/buyer transaction now has very muddy responsibilities and rights.

In short: contractual responsibilities, if not defined by a written contract, can be defined only by a court. Which means several things.

First, a prudent printer should have a standard "we're gonna do business and here is how we do it" contract that is signed before starting any business relationship.

(Ah! but having to sign a contract could dampen the enthusiasm of many prospective customers! Indeed. And that is a crucial factor to keep in mind.)​

Second, at every stage of the production process there should be a reminder of the rights you claim.

Now, both of these principles are observed only in the breach by most printers. For the sake of expediency or something else.

What would be a reasonable expectation for a purchase from another craft, for example photographers?

I state photographers because they are usually MUCH smarter than printers about this stuff. You are ALWAYS asked to sign waivers and releases and stuff by any photographer who's been in business for more than half a year. For good reason.

There is no simple solution. You can drive away customers either by pre-defining your stand or by making your stand at the moment of conflict.

What are your rock bottom "rights"? Very few, if you don't take the care to define them before you accept the order.

(And don't think that a court would "just naturally" take your side. There are MANY cases over the past thirty years that have been judged against printers following every single piece of advice that has been given here about releasing "bad" art, art without linked files, etc., etc. Caveat venditor.)

What should you do? Be pragmatic, whatever that means.

 

[MailGuru]

Basically, the "legal precedent" is this:

Let's say you hired me to paint your house. I take a look, and give you an estimate (how many gallons of paint, how many hours, etc.). Now, let's assume that, in order to paint your house, I will need to buy the paint (already discussed), but, I will also need to buy some paint brushes and a ladder. Were those two items mentioned and itemized to you? Are they on my estimate? Did I bill you for them, and, you paid. If so, the brushes and the ladder belong to YOU at the end of the job (you paid for them). If not, then the brushes and the ladder belong to ME (they were supplies that I bought, and I paid for to allow me to do the job).

PDF's in the print business are the same. If I charge the customer for the art & pre-press setup time, then, at the end of the job, the PDF's belong to the customer. If I did not charge for that service, (in order to get the print job), then the PDF's belong to me.

In either case, it's usually best to just give the customer whatever they are asking for and move on to the next job. They'll be back.

 

[davarino]

That's probably a good policy to have but may just be wishful thinking. Going by what the OP has said in this thread so far, it's sounding like to me that in this case, they won't be back.

Even so, let them leave without a grudge. A former customer's little grudge can eventually become a lousy rumor.

 

[Andy_warp]

I would say giving them a pdf would be easier to stomach than the original Indesign working files. We have come across this in the grand format dye sub world...and for us, releasing our working files could potentially expose trade secrets...and details pertaining to our workflow. I think an earlier poster asked did they pay for art creation...or was it created to "get" the job? For us, we receive super sub standard artwork pretty regularly due to many designers not having a solid grasp on resolution. It's a pretty regular thing for us to get a 300ppi 11x17 with an expectation of a 50 ft long wall. The problem we have is if we leave it up to an inexperienced designer to upsample an image...and they do a hack job, people at a tradeshow will notice. And they'll ask "who printed that?" Not "Who built that production file?" It's a catch 22 for us, we can't rework EVERYTHING...but we also can't have products leaving our shop that don't meet our basic quality standards.

 

[Andy_warp]

i've wondered if we could get away with providing a flat, high-resolution tiff or even a PDF with all the fonts outlined and meshes/gradients etc. expanded. Think about all of the things we've had to do to reverse-engineer files so we could print for customers. what would stop us from trying to reverse engineer a file? that's the type of file we'd need to provide to the customer. seems sort of mean, i know, but it does protect us and the work we've done. and we are giving them the final artwork.

I think there is zero problem with this. When working for a residential engineer, we would "dumb-down" all of the 3d cad files we released....yep it wasn't a solid "cube" anymore...it was lines, just lines. It seems like a jerk move, but we had information in our templates and working files that could potentially expose our whole business model to someone who knew what they were looking for.

I designed and modeled a deck that had all of the objects as adjustable parametric objects...you could change the size and shape of the deck, and still have the ability to adjust the model. That original design file could build a whole business!