Dulpexing: Auto vs. Manual Pro's and Con's

[tbone56]

An issue has come up for me that weighs heavily on what equipment I need to purchase.

I focus my business on business cards and want to start printing on 100lb cover. However, the machines that auto duplex that weight are much more powerful that I need.

Specifically the imagerunner 9065 vs image press 6000

I print about 5k sheets a week that are all duplexed full color business cards. There are several different styles, colors and so forth.

Is is worth the time saved to get the 6000 with duplexing or better to manually do it on the 9065?

At what point would it justify jumping up to a press 6000?

Can anyone help me with the pros and cons?

 

[Possumgal]

I have no experience with imagerunners, but I can tell you that you can kiss your front-to-back registration goodbye if you duplex manually. And that would make cutting business cards a real pain.

 

[hondarr9]

I have no experience with imagerunners, but I can tell you that you can kiss your front-to-back registration goodbye if you duplex manually. And that would make cutting business cards a real pain.

I find just the opposite on our Xerox and KM machines. I get better front to back registration when doing separate runs for heavy card stock.

 

[JayDA]

I find just the opposite on our Xerox and KM machines. I get better front to back registration when doing separate runs for heavy card stock.

^^ What he said ^^

 

[jotterpinky]

What I've decided after running both types of machines is that you will get much better front to back registration on the higher end machines...not necessarily because they auto-duplex but because they are designed with tighter tolerances in mind. However, unless you are running prints that have variable information on them i.e. each sheet is different, you should not have trouble manually duplexing. I find the auto-duplex most useful when running postcards or something with an address or variable image where the front HAS to match the back, if you run these on a manual duplex machine you need to constantly check to make sure you have not pulled two sheets, jammed a sheet on the second side, etc.. If you do your entire order is screwed up and you'll need to figure out where you're at...not worth the trouble. If you are running sets of cards this shouldn't be a problem.

You might want to re-think your decision on the Canon 9065. We have one and it's a dog. After one year of use we bought something else and it's collecting dust in the corner even though we still are paying on the lease. The registration seems to hold for a while then drifts off as much as 1/4", then back in several sheets later. You could be running 500 sheets and pull sheet 25 to check, it looks good so you continue printing, when you pull sheet 150 to check it it's also okay. What you don't realize is that sheets 85-118 are out of register with the rest of the sheets in the stack. Our dealer lost quite a bit of money on it replacing parts like crazy to no avail. It could be our dealer though.

 

[msaeger]

If you are critical about registration get something that will correct registration front to back and lead to trail. Office type machines only correct for lead to trail so your front to back will vary a lot depending on how the paper gets put in the trays.

Machines from Ricoh that do this are the c900, c720, c901, c751, and c651. I know the KM8000 does not sure that you have to get from Canon or Xerox.

 

[tbone56]

Sorry to reply so late. My spam caught all the email notifications.

So, my take is that is that the hight machines preformance justifies the cost, while the lesser machines cost is more what I can do, the preformance is not worth the extra labor and hard ache.

I haver been quoted on the Xerox 700, Canon IP C9065 but then found out that they only duplex 80lb cover. This is my problem becuase I only want to run 100lb cover for business cards that will have VD.

So, I have asked for quotes on machines that will auto-duplex 100lb and have recieved one on the Canon ImagePress 6010. Waiting on what Xerox has to offer.

If I am only running 100lb cover, I should go with a "press" quality machine? Becuase the registration on 13x19 cover will be better, quality will be better, and the capability to auto-duplex 100lb cover.

Thanks in advance.

 

[airyk]

We're able to "lie" to our Xerox when duplexing 100# Cover and choose a lower GSM to successfully duplex. However anything higher we manulally duplex.

 

[arossetti]

They will come back to you with an 8002 or an 800. Might be able to get a good deal on the 8002 but both of those machines seem like a lot for 20m sheets. Whats your total monthly color volume?

 

[RKS]

We duplex upto 111# Cover in auto on our 700 very successfully. I believe you only have to fool it above 100#.

 

[Steve_S]

We duplex 100# Gloss cover all day long on Oce CS665 and CS650. Registration is generally 1/2 mm if we run a Both Sides adjustment for the stock. Sometimes you have to outsmart the spec, sometimes the machine won't do it. As far as those machines (equivalent of KM 6500/6501) they will do it if you keep the machine adjusted right.

We almost always encounter skew discrepancies on attempts at manual duplex. That has been our experience with X boxes, KM, and Océ - just does not work well.

 

[tbone56]

Sorry to take so long in responding. I have had several things come up that have delayed this project.

Still needing a machine... we are leaning towards the IR 9065 but wanted to quickly make sure that people have been able to auto duplex 11 x 17 100# cover out of the attachable side pod/paper deck (not stack bypass)?

We can't justify spending the money for the IP 6000 if we only need it for it's ability to auto duplex 100# cover. However, if we are going to have serious problems after the first year on the 9065, then we might get the 6000.

Anyone with personal experience on these?

 

[graymatter]

There are really good deals to be had on KM C6501s these days, since the new 6/7000s came out. It's a good box and will run that stock all day with tight registration once you get it dialed in. What market are you in? I might have a lead on a lease return with a dealer in our network. Not all those were "rode hard and put up wet" in a hardcore production environment; cherries exist that lived lives as office/church copiers, the result of overselling (AND overbuying!). Not a ton, but some. Worth a look.

>>>>>Note that if you work & turn, that stock should NOT be treated as the same stock it was on the first side. Spend the time getting the registration tight AND the transfer settings. And remember that if you have one side with heavy fill it should be run FIRST in most cases. This avoids mottling.

WADR to Steve, the KM 6500/6501 are not "the equivalent of" the Océ models. They're exactly rebadged Konica Minoltas. YMMV on support; when I was at Océ, the techs knew fuqall about KM production machines and treated them like big copiers. But then, I've seen KM branches with similar deficiencies. Like I said, YMMV.

 

[arossetti]

I would not jump into a machine that does not support the paper stock your needing. If you get into any kind of issue with image quality or paper jams the printer manufacturer will just blame the paper stock. You would have to duplicate the same issue on a approved stock and if it does not duplicate you would be SOL. Tricking the machine works if its the exception but if this is your house stock I would think twice about it.

 

[tbone56]

graymatter, Thanks for the info. on switching the settings for the side of paper stock. I did not know that. Were down south in the Dallas area.

I had a KM sales rep come out and show me the doc's on the 6/7000's. He is putting together a quote. I will have to ask him about the 6500's.

arossetti, Our default stock at the moment is 80# b/c that is the machines max. We want to move to stock 100#. That's a good thought with duplicating the issue.

Does anyone know the real PPM using 100# duplexed in the Canon 9065 or the Canon IP 6000?
I understand they will slow down considerably when running that.

It seems to me that we are right in between a commercial grade and a press grade printer. The commercial grade will almost do all of what we need and the press grade will do more than what we need. Given your experience, where would you go?

Also, if I am just going to be sending PDF files to the printer, what type of controller would do that? Standard one that is on the machine, external, stand-alone, etc.?