Editing DeviceN images Acrobat

[Repro_is_still_alive]

I am having trouble exporting/editing a deviceN image (CMYK and PMS process blue) in acrobat 8 pro, as far as I am aware there is no way of exporting this image out as one image in acrobat, as it is seen in the pdf environment as two images - cmyk and a separate image of pms process blue set to multiply over the top of the cmyk.

If I use the touch-up tool the PMS process blue opens up in photoshop but as a RGB image, if I do a export all images I get the same result does anyone know of a way to get the spot colour to open correctly in photoshop. It would be even better if the whole image opened up in photoshop - cmyk & spot channel (as the original psd file)

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

Re: Editing DeviceN images Acrobat

Doubt if there is any way to touch-up edit a 5 channel image. Is the original made in photoshop? Try opening the page in illustrator and then save as PSD (possibly keeping layers). It sounds like a one time issue.
Plan B would be to go back to the source.

 

[Repro_is_still_alive]

Re: Editing DeviceN images Acrobat

I don't think this is going to be a one time issue, working within the packaging sector so we work with spot colours all the time, original was a psd and have tried the illustrator route already.

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

Re: Editing DeviceN images Acrobat

If you have the PSD why would you want to touch it up as PDF?

 

[Repro_is_still_alive]

Re: Editing DeviceN images Acrobat

I haven't got the PSD i just know the original was created that way

 

[leonardr]

Re: Editing DeviceN images Acrobat

First - Acrobat (and PDF) only see a SINGLE IMAGE that is combined of 5 channels.

Second - Acrobat simply writes the image out to disk and then sends it over to the image editor. Photoshop, in this case, is reporting its inability to edit the content. Why, I don't know.

Third - I am not aware of any way to edit a DeviceN image with Acrobat + Photoshop at this time.

Leonard

 

[Repro_is_still_alive]

Re: Editing DeviceN images Acrobat

Hi Leonard,

Thanks for the reply, I know you are helping with the specifications for packaging PDF (GWG) and these are some of the obstacles that we are encountering when supplying PDF out to printers.

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

Re: Editing DeviceN images Acrobat

> {quote:title=leonardr wrote:}{quote}
> First - Acrobat (and PDF) only see a SINGLE IMAGE that is combined of 5 channels.
Sorry? How did you come to that conclusion? The first post explains that that is not what he has. Are you saying that IF the source was only a PSD then it would be a five chanel file?
If so I can't do it. I just tested it created a CMYK file added and extra spot channel created a square on the extra channel and exported to PDF. I get a CMYK image and channel number 5 as a seperate image in the PDF, exactly as described. Not wanting to be obstinate, but where do you get your facts, I can only get them from experience.

> Second - Acrobat simply writes the image out to disk and then sends it over to the image editor. Photoshop, in this case, is reporting its inability to edit the content. Why, I don't know.
Are you confusing this with another thread discussing index images that could not be edited? The image is opened but only the CMYK or the Spot channel, it is not possible to combine them, and that is what this thread was discussing (the thread topic beingmissleading I agree) .

> Third - I am not aware of any way to edit a DeviceN image with Acrobat + Photoshop at this time.
I was assuming a typo that it was Device CMYK, since there is no such thing as DeviceN CMYK.

 

[phantasm]

Re: Editing DeviceN images Acrobat

> {quote:title=Repro_is_still_alive wrote:}{quote}
> I don't think this is going to be a one time issue, working within the packaging sector so we work with spot colours all the time, original was a psd and have tried the illustrator route already.

Hi,

When you say you've tried Illustrator, what do you get? Is the DeviceN image split up into CMYK + Spot channel images? Which version of Illustrator are you using?

Illustrator CS3 handles DeviceN images, but I have found something a little confusing. When creating the image in Photoshop and setting the image mode to Multichannel, Ai doesn't want to know it. But when starting out as a CMYK image and then adding spot colors (equally making it multichannel in my book...), Ai CS3 places it fine as a DeviceN image.

Best wishes,

Nick

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

Re: Editing DeviceN images Acrobat

> {quote:title=phantasm wrote:}{quote}
> Illustrator CS3 handles DeviceN images, but I have found something a little confusing. When creating the image in Photoshop and setting the image mode to Multichannel, Ai doesn't want to know it. But when starting out as a CMYK image and then adding spot colors (equally making it multichannel in my book...), Ai CS3 places it fine as a DeviceN image.

Multichannel? How do you get a multichannel to export to PDF? I never suceeded Assumed we are talking CMYK+spot. Btw the difference when opening a CMYK+spot PSD and the same file as PDF is that in the PSD puts the spot ontop with overprint, and the PDF, besides putting spot channel below puts clipping paths and sets the CMYK image to overprint.
Even placing a CMYK+spot colour in illustrator is producing a CMYK image and a spot image… I would say you need the source files if you want to edit.

 

[leonardr]

Re: Editing DeviceN images Acrobat

> {quote:title=Lukas Engqvit wrote:}{quote}
> Sorry? How did you come to that conclusion? The first post explains that that is not what he has. Are you saying that IF the source was only a PSD then it would be a five chanel file?

I am saying that a DeviceN image in a PDF is a single image with N channels - that's how DeviceN works.

As far as verifying this particular issue, I opened up a PDF in Acrobat 9 Pro Extended on Windows XP (on the same box as Photoshop CS3 Extended) that I have containing a Hexachrome DeviceN, which consisted of 6 channels. I then used Touchup Image to try to edit the image and received the error message as noted.

> If so I can't do it. I just tested it created a CMYK file added and extra spot channel created a square on the extra channel and exported to PDF. I get a CMYK image and channel number 5 as a seperate image in the PDF, exactly as described. Not wanting to be obstinate, but where do you get your facts, I can only get them from experience.
>

It appears that Photoshop is not able to create a single DeviceN image from a CMYK+Spot channel image. (I tried and got the same result you did). I also tried switching to multichannel mode (from CMYK) and then Photoshop wouldn't even bother to offer PDF as an output option. And neither InDesign nor Illustrator can import the multichannel image either . Time for a chat with the folks over in Creative Suite!


> > Second - Acrobat simply writes the image out to disk and then sends it over to the image editor. Photoshop, in this case, is reporting its inability to edit the content. Why, I don't know.
> Are you confusing this with another thread discussing index images that could not be edited?

No - see above...

> > Third - I am not aware of any way to edit a DeviceN image with Acrobat + Photoshop at this time.
> I was assuming a typo that it was Device CMYK, since there is no such thing as DeviceN CMYK.
>
While there is nothing called "DeviceN CMYK" in the PDF Reference, the fact is that you can have (and it's not uncommon) a DeviceN with N==4, where the channels are specifically named Cyan, Magenta, Yellow and Black. According to the PDF Reference, and the PDF/X standards, such a color is to be treated EXACTLY as DeviceCMYK.

Leonard

 

[phantasm]

Re: Editing DeviceN images Acrobat

Hi Lukas,

> {quote:title=Lukas Engqvit wrote:}{quote}
> Multichannel? How do you get a multichannel to export to PDF? I never suceeded

You have to save in PS as a DCS EPS file and then place this in the Ai document (linked). You can then save as a PDF from Ai.

But I don't like DCS EPS for a number of reasons (and I realise that until recently it has been the only reliable route to achieve certain tasks!), including (a) it can't be embedded in Ai and (b) it gets all chopped-up whenever it's handled much. I personally feel that now Ai has DeviceN capabilities, it is near-obsolete.

> {quote:title=Lukas Engqvit wrote:}{quote}
> Assumed we are talking CMYK+spot. Btw the difference when opening a CMYK+spot PSD and the same file as PDF is that in the PSD puts the spot ontop with overprint, and the PDF, besides putting spot channel below puts clipping paths and sets the CMYK image to overprint.

Indeed. And it's very annoying in CS3 now that there is true DeviceN image handling.

> {quote:title=Lukas Engqvit wrote:}{quote}
> Even placing a CMYK+spot colour in illustrator is producing a CMYK image and a spot image… I would say you need the source files if you want to edit.

It's true that for some strange reason, Ai CS3 still insists on splitting up a CMYK+spot image into a CMYK image with the spot channels images overprinted. Not a clue why - it clearly can handle it properly. Two methods I have found to work natively with DeviceN images in Ai:

1) Import the image and then rasterize it in Ai at the original's resolution, ensuring "Preserve spot colors" option is ticked.

2) When using [Phantasm CS Studio|http://www.phantasmcs.com/features/index.html#editimage], edit the embedded image and then substitute or change it into a CMYK+Spot image in PS and update back in Ai.

Incidentally, this is the way I edit DeviceN images in PDFs; I bring the page/image into Ai, rasterize (with "Preserve spot colors" option is ticked), and then use [Phantasm CS Studio's|http://www.phantasmcs.com/features/index.html#editimage] Edit Image tool. It's the only way I know!

Best wishes,

Nick

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

Re: Editing DeviceN images Acrobat

Great to hear you share your knowlege. Sometimes at the grass route one knows what to do and the workarounds. Don't allways know what it's "supposed" to be able to do. Never worked with hexachrome (thought that was a feature that you needed special plug-ins to work, seen plug adds for that kind of stuff) , CMYK with spot channels is what first came to mind.
But unfortunately for repro he will still have to wrestle with the customer for the work files… good luck, hope you get the moral support to go get the files, and that the customer will say that you are akward after spending time to figure out your options.

 

[michaelejahn]

Re: Editing DeviceN images Acrobat

@ Lukas

1. I do not think that Adobe ever claimed that PDF was a format that was "editable".

2. Grass Route - well, i will assume you mean "Grass root" - which, in "American' means "even the morons can do this" - I will suggest that editing Device N images embedded in a PDF file is closer to the moon than "grass roots" - this is a very complex issue - one that concerns a very small population. This is not in Adobes basket. Not even CS4.

3. This has less to do with "moral support" and more to do with sound advice. I think we are wasting our collective time explaining the limitations of editing image files in a PDF while in Acrobat - would LOVE it if someone would suggest a plug-in here...ah - i though not.

@ -- NOTE TO POSTER.

You are deep sea diving in a volcanic area where there is a reported strong current." - get thy self to Neo -- http://www.esko.com/web/site.aspx?p=2305

Esko knows your pain.

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

Re: Editing DeviceN images Acrobat

> {quote:title=michaelejahn wrote:}{quote}
> @ Lukas
>
> 1. I do not think that Adobe ever claimed that PDF was a format that was "editable".
>
> 2. Grass Route - well, i will assume you mean "Grass root" - which, in "American' means "even the morons can do this" - I will suggest that editing Device N images embedded in a PDF file is closer to the moon than "grass roots" - this is a very complex issue - one that concerns a very small population. This is not in Adobes basket. Not even CS4.

Thank you for your spelling corrections. As in grass roots, I meant the ones stuck between the rock of "solve the problem" and the hard spot "the software can't do that".

> 3. This has less to do with "moral support" and more to do with sound advice. I think we are wasting our collective time explaining the limitations of editing image files in a PDF while in Acrobat - would LOVE it if someone would suggest a plug-in here...ah - i though not.
It is important to know what can be done. The poster was experiencing a real life issue. He said he couldn't get the original file, but knew it originated from photoshop. At the same time the splitting into two images is the way photoshop handles CMYK+spot colour, which means that even though deviceN is possible it is not what the customer has.
As a person having to argue with customers to send original files because they insist that the settings they learned on a seminar dealing with a different workflow means that they can't deliver unusable PDF's – moral support claim that you need the right materials to do your job is sometimes essential.

Repro thinks this will be a reoccuring issue, and so it is important to know if it can't be done!
> @ -- NOTE TO POSTER.
>
> You are deep sea diving in a volcanic area where there is a reported strong current." - get thy self to Neo -- http://www.esko.com/web/site.aspx?p=2305
>
> Esko knows your pain.

Esko can't do anything about it, because your file is already split into a CMYK + a spot image, whose visiual integrity to the original is preserved at the price of editability. Knowing the pain is a long way from relieving it.

**disclaimer: I herby reserve the right to expressmyself gramatically, and idiomatically incorrect. Any wear on the eye of the reader is unintensional. Damage to readers pshche as they may have read a spelling mistake is the sole responsibility of the industry.

 

[rich apollo]

Re: Editing DeviceN images Acrobat

> {quote:title=michaelejahn wrote:}{quote}
> You are deep sea diving in a volcanic area where there is a reported strong current." - get thy self to Neo -- http://www.esko.com/web/site.aspx?p=2305
>
> Esko knows your pain.

Well, Esko purchased the knowledge of your pain. But that's neither here nor there.

More to the point - this N color issue is a REAL BUGABOO! Pore over a PDF or two and you'll quickly encounter the same editability issues for grayscale imagery. I've seen PDFs containing Monotones (using spot color black), CMYK (with only the black channel occupied), indexed CMYK, indexed color and grayscale - several in the same PDF, all having been originally grayscale imagery, and most of them uneditable. This happens CONSTANTLY to grayscale images - so it's not an esoteric issue.

Have you looked at the price tag on NEO? That's pretty pricey for a capability that should all ready be a part of our tool kit.

Folks are going to have to make sure that this issue gets on Adobe's radar. From what Leonard says, it's the Photoshop team who needs to have it come across their desks.